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I agree with both your statements, but what does keeping plea bargains but stopping abuse look like? I mean, you'd have to come up with some sort of reliable t

I agree with both your statements, but what does keeping plea bargains but stopping abuse look like? I mean, you'd have to come up with some sort of reliable test for what abusing the system is. That means you'd essentially have to have rules for prosecutors' discretion, which sort of defeats the idea of discretion. I understand the ideal of plea bargains, but I can't think of how to make them work without inviting bad situations, particularly for those that suffer more from drawn out litigation or have reason to suspect the system wouldn't find them correctly innocent. It's easy to find terribly egregious scenarios, but plenty of others become quite subjective, and yet still very manipulative. Honest question, do you have a proposed solution that doesn't remove plea bargains entirely?

akiselev 10y ago
> That means you'd essentially have to have rules for prosecutors' discretion, which sort of defeats the idea of discretion. No it doesn't. Their discretion for who and what to prosecute are already limited by the criminal code created by the relevant legislature. Judges have a lot more discretion than prosecutors but they too are limited by a variety of factors including minimum sentencing laws and public pressure (since many are elected). Besides, prosecutors already have too much discretion if they can use false positive tests and the threat of a jury sentencing to bully innocent people into becoming felons. > Honest question, do you have a proposed solution that doesn't remove plea bargains entirely? There are a number of solutions, just look at the Wikipedia page on plea bargaining [1]. Plea bargains are illegal in countries like Denmark and severely restricted elsewhere like the UK and Estonia. This is trodden territory. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain
- ergothus 10y ago
  >> Honest question, do you have a proposed solution that doesn't remove plea bargains entirely? > There are a number of solutions...Plea bargains are illegal in countries like Denmark and severely restricted elsewhere like the UK and Estonia. That sounds an awful lot like saying "No, you remove them entirely, or almost entirely" Since I was asking someone that said they wanted to keep plea bargains how they pictured that, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Can you elaborate?
  - akiselev 10y ago
    Did you read the page? In Estonia plea bargains are limited to cases that carry a maximum of four years of imprisonment and a max of 25% can be shaved off of the sentence. In France, plea bargains are limited to crimes that carry a maximum of one year. Poland has a maximum of ten years. Note that this does not preclude anyone from pleading guilty without a plea bargain. The whole point is to reduce court load and create leverage when trying to convince someone to become state's witness (which is controversial as well). How does placing concrete limits on plea bargains doing away with them "entirely or almost entirely?" Estonia's and France's systems, for example, allow largely unrestricted plea bargains in the vast majority of cases, thus freeing the court for more important cases that carry large penalties while preventing prosecutors from bullying innocent people for the sake of their career.

akiselev 10y ago

> That means you'd essentially have to have rules for prosecutors' discretion, which sort of defeats the idea of discretion. No it doesn't. Their discretion for who and what to prosecute are already limited by the criminal code created by the relevant legislature. Judges have a lot more discretion than prosecutors but they too are limited by a variety of factors including minimum sentencing laws and public pressure (since many are elected). Besides, prosecutors already have too much discretion if they can use false positive tests and the threat of a jury sentencing to bully innocent people into becoming felons. > Honest question, do you have a proposed solution that doesn't remove plea bargains entirely? There are a number of solutions, just look at the Wikipedia page on plea bargaining [1]. Plea bargains are illegal in countries like Denmark and severely restricted elsewhere like the UK and Estonia. This is trodden territory. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plea_bargain

ergothus 10y ago
>> Honest question, do you have a proposed solution that doesn't remove plea bargains entirely? > There are a number of solutions...Plea bargains are illegal in countries like Denmark and severely restricted elsewhere like the UK and Estonia. That sounds an awful lot like saying "No, you remove them entirely, or almost entirely" Since I was asking someone that said they wanted to keep plea bargains how they pictured that, I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Can you elaborate?
- akiselev 10y ago
  Did you read the page? In Estonia plea bargains are limited to cases that carry a maximum of four years of imprisonment and a max of 25% can be shaved off of the sentence. In France, plea bargains are limited to crimes that carry a maximum of one year. Poland has a maximum of ten years. Note that this does not preclude anyone from pleading guilty without a plea bargain. The whole point is to reduce court load and create leverage when trying to convince someone to become state's witness (which is controversial as well). How does placing concrete limits on plea bargains doing away with them "entirely or almost entirely?" Estonia's and France's systems, for example, allow largely unrestricted plea bargains in the vast majority of cases, thus freeing the court for more important cases that carry large penalties while preventing prosecutors from bullying innocent people for the sake of their career.