8 ms·

Because /r/haskell has become a place of constant flamewars. We need a clean break. A new subreddit provides a fresh start allowing to mold a new community base

Because /r/haskell has become a place of constant flamewars. We need a clean break. A new subreddit provides a fresh start allowing to mold a new community based on better principles. Everyone who wants to be part of the new community is invited to join the new Haskell movement. Troublemaker will hopefully stay behind

jerf 10y ago
"Because /r/haskell has become a place of constant flamewars." Are we talking about different /r/haskells here? I'm not seeing it. "Disagreement" is not "a flamewar". Wouldn't even call it "constant disagreement", either. Do you have an example "flamewar" you can show us?
- snaky 10y ago
  > "Disagreement" is not "a flamewar" It's worse these days. "We need a safe zones!"
thu 10y ago
> a new community based on better principles Like stating the "old" community is based on worse principles ?
MustardTiger 10y ago
>Because /r/haskell has become a place of constant flamewars No, it most certainly has not. >Troublemaker will hopefully stay behind Three of the people involved in this would be lumped into the "troublemaker" group in any objective measure.
- gelisam 10y ago
  What? Apart from Sibi Prabakaran who I've never heard of (maybe I only know them by their handle?), everybody else in the list is a high profile, highly-respected member of the community. As far as I can tell from being on /r/haskell during the whole day every day. What kind of trouble did they cause?
  - emptyset 10y ago
    There used to be a time when blog posts were written about how toxic the Haskell community is to beginners by people who had encountered abusive behaviour from Chris Allen whilst trying to learn. He had a long history of such behaviour on Twitter.
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    The arguments being characterized as "flamewars" almost exclusively involve Snoyman, and often include others of the FP complete "take over haskell" task force listed.
axman6 10y ago
Are we reading the same r/Haskell? I've never seen anything more than minor disagreements - any trolling gets down voted into oblivion, beginner questions are always answered constructively with usually more information than was originally requested. I usually head straight to the comments, often before reading the articles to see what additional information has been added to the conversation. I note that several of the names in the announcement are often front and centre of anything that could be flamewars - the rest of the community is very civil. This is really disappointing to see this sort of public division in the community, with as far as I can see no good reason.
codygman 10y ago
> Because /r/haskell has become a place of constant flamewars. I visit there every day and I have no idea what flame wars you are talking about.
- Rabble_Of_One 10y ago
  For starters just recently FP Complete open-sourced a new cool high-performance serialization library. Then a few people started giving Michael shit for no reason. See https://www.reddit.com/user/snoyberg?after=t1_d3ncybv https://www.reddit.com/user/snoyberg?after=t1_d3ncybv
  - gmfawcett 10y ago
    Are you talking about the "store" discussion? Michael seems to have brought some of that upon himself. He entered that discussion in a fairly abrasive way [1], and based on his replies, he didn't seem very motivated to foster a more positive discussion (or to just walk away from the trolls). [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4l3y9f/store_a_new_and_efficient_binary_serialization/d3kb0ig https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4l3y9f/store_a_new...
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    Are you mgsloan on reddit? Nobody said anything about snoyberg at all until he showed up and started shitting on everyone like usual. All I said was that FP complete is setting a bad example by actively refusing to follow established community guidelines (PvP).
    - realmgsloan 10y ago
      No, it isn't. I don't use HN much, just taking a look at this conversation. I shouldn't even respond to this comment considering its tone. You should keep in mind that this was in discussion of a new serialization library, not the PVP. I actually had to create this new account because I forgot my password and my old account (probably mgsloan) doesn't have an email address associated. > All I said was that FP complete is setting a bad example by actively refusing to follow established community guidelines (PvP). We do follow the important parts of the PvP. Personally, I consider the 3rd section of the PvP a failed experiment. It just doesn't work well, and the maintainer / hackage trustee overhead is too damn high. My theory is that the folks who are adamant about the PvP are either damn tenacious and dedicated (hvr, dcoutts, etc), or people who don't deal with projects with many dependencies and custom packages. So, yes, we are willing to dump tradition when the tradition is nonsense. I think that Haskellers ought to understand this very well - tradition should be questioned - particularly when it is a major pain point. When there is great value in doing so, we are questioning some traditions and doing our own thing. This attitude appears to be ruffling the feathers of the vocal minority.
coolsunglasses 10y ago
Why are you using a name like one I'm known for using? People think you're me.
- zxexz 10y ago
  I spent a fair bit of time trying to figure that one out. Thanks for clearing that up here and on Reddit that Rabble_of_one isn't /u/Mob_of_one on Reddit. Also thanks for learnhaskell! It helped me a lot when I was first learning :)
seagreen 10y ago
The new subreddit is not for general haskell discussion, it's only for the discussion of things related to the haskell-lang.org site. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4ghznv/improved_hpcaballess_wwwhaskellorg_in_the_works/d2jhwm6 https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4ghznv/improved_hp... Note that the community page on haskell-lang.org still links to /r/haskell: https://haskell-lang.org/community https://haskell-lang.org/community I understand why this is confusing though, since the HN link goes to an annoucements page which mentions the new subreddit prominently), but the homepage for haskell-lang.org does not.

jerf 10y ago

"Because /r/haskell has become a place of constant flamewars." Are we talking about different /r/haskells here? I'm not seeing it. "Disagreement" is not "a flamewar". Wouldn't even call it "constant disagreement", either. Do you have an example "flamewar" you can show us?

snaky 10y ago
> "Disagreement" is not "a flamewar" It's worse these days. "We need a safe zones!"

thu 10y ago

> a new community based on better principles Like stating the "old" community is based on worse principles ?

MustardTiger 10y ago

>Because /r/haskell has become a place of constant flamewars No, it most certainly has not. >Troublemaker will hopefully stay behind Three of the people involved in this would be lumped into the "troublemaker" group in any objective measure.

gelisam 10y ago
What? Apart from Sibi Prabakaran who I've never heard of (maybe I only know them by their handle?), everybody else in the list is a high profile, highly-respected member of the community. As far as I can tell from being on /r/haskell during the whole day every day. What kind of trouble did they cause?
- emptyset 10y ago
  There used to be a time when blog posts were written about how toxic the Haskell community is to beginners by people who had encountered abusive behaviour from Chris Allen whilst trying to learn. He had a long history of such behaviour on Twitter.
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  The arguments being characterized as "flamewars" almost exclusively involve Snoyman, and often include others of the FP complete "take over haskell" task force listed.

axman6 10y ago

Are we reading the same r/Haskell? I've never seen anything more than minor disagreements - any trolling gets down voted into oblivion, beginner questions are always answered constructively with usually more information than was originally requested. I usually head straight to the comments, often before reading the articles to see what additional information has been added to the conversation. I note that several of the names in the announcement are often front and centre of anything that could be flamewars - the rest of the community is very civil. This is really disappointing to see this sort of public division in the community, with as far as I can see no good reason.

codygman 10y ago

> Because /r/haskell has become a place of constant flamewars. I visit there every day and I have no idea what flame wars you are talking about.

Rabble_Of_One 10y ago
For starters just recently FP Complete open-sourced a new cool high-performance serialization library. Then a few people started giving Michael shit for no reason. See https://www.reddit.com/user/snoyberg?after=t1_d3ncybv https://www.reddit.com/user/snoyberg?after=t1_d3ncybv
- gmfawcett 10y ago
  Are you talking about the "store" discussion? Michael seems to have brought some of that upon himself. He entered that discussion in a fairly abrasive way [1], and based on his replies, he didn't seem very motivated to foster a more positive discussion (or to just walk away from the trolls). [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4l3y9f/store_a_new_and_efficient_binary_serialization/d3kb0ig https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4l3y9f/store_a_new...
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  Are you mgsloan on reddit? Nobody said anything about snoyberg at all until he showed up and started shitting on everyone like usual. All I said was that FP complete is setting a bad example by actively refusing to follow established community guidelines (PvP).
  - realmgsloan 10y ago
    No, it isn't. I don't use HN much, just taking a look at this conversation. I shouldn't even respond to this comment considering its tone. You should keep in mind that this was in discussion of a new serialization library, not the PVP. I actually had to create this new account because I forgot my password and my old account (probably mgsloan) doesn't have an email address associated. > All I said was that FP complete is setting a bad example by actively refusing to follow established community guidelines (PvP). We do follow the important parts of the PvP. Personally, I consider the 3rd section of the PvP a failed experiment. It just doesn't work well, and the maintainer / hackage trustee overhead is too damn high. My theory is that the folks who are adamant about the PvP are either damn tenacious and dedicated (hvr, dcoutts, etc), or people who don't deal with projects with many dependencies and custom packages. So, yes, we are willing to dump tradition when the tradition is nonsense. I think that Haskellers ought to understand this very well - tradition should be questioned - particularly when it is a major pain point. When there is great value in doing so, we are questioning some traditions and doing our own thing. This attitude appears to be ruffling the feathers of the vocal minority.

coolsunglasses 10y ago

Why are you using a name like one I'm known for using? People think you're me.

zxexz 10y ago
I spent a fair bit of time trying to figure that one out. Thanks for clearing that up here and on Reddit that Rabble_of_one isn't /u/Mob_of_one on Reddit. Also thanks for learnhaskell! It helped me a lot when I was first learning :)

seagreen 10y ago

The new subreddit is not for general haskell discussion, it's only for the discussion of things related to the haskell-lang.org site. Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4ghznv/improved_hpcaballess_wwwhaskellorg_in_the_works/d2jhwm6 https://www.reddit.com/r/haskell/comments/4ghznv/improved_hp... Note that the community page on haskell-lang.org still links to /r/haskell: https://haskell-lang.org/community https://haskell-lang.org/community I understand why this is confusing though, since the HN link goes to an annoucements page which mentions the new subreddit prominently), but the homepage for haskell-lang.org does not.