5 ms·

Why is wireless necessary? Isn't ethernet over power a more obvious solution? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HomePlug

legooolas 10y ago
That's exactly what X10 does, but it's fallen out of favour in recent times. (I've not used it so I couldn't say why)
- JoshTriplett 10y ago
  I used to use X10. Then I discovered the hard way that buying low-bidder electronics that plug directly into mains power is a really bad idea: one of the control boxes that plugged into a wall outlet started to get hot enough to create a blackened spot on its label.
- gregmac 10y ago
  X10 is particularly horrible for a couple of reasons. For one I'll quote from the Wikipedia entry: > In the 60 Hz AC current flow, a bit value of one is represented by a 1 millisecond burst of 120 kHz at the zero crossing point (nominally 0°, but within 200 microseconds of the zero crossing point), immediately followed by the absence of a pulse. A zero value is represented by the absence of 120 kHz at the zero crossing point (pulse), immediately followed by the presence of a pulse. Command sequences are only 2 bytes (16 bits) long, and for certain commands ("all lights on", "all lights off") four of those bits are even ignored. This means it's quite common for electrical noise to be mistaken for signals. The other problem is increasingly we have more noisy electrical gear on the line, and more equipment that absorbs/filters the actual signals (UPSes, and pretty much any switch-mode power supply in computers, TVs, etc). I unfortunately put in a bunch of X10 stuff at my parent's cottage many years ago, and it had this problem. Somewhere between every couple days and every few weeks, all the lights would turn on. Sometimes while no one was there, sometimes in the middle of night when you were sleeping :) We since replaced it with Insteon dual-band, which uses both wireless and powerline, and it's significantly more reliable (and all those problems have disappeared). In case anyone's interested, we used this stuff because the main floor is basically one big open concept space, and has entrances on all four sides (deck, sunroom, stairs and front door) and the 'smart' switches avoided having to install a stupid amount of 3- and 4-way switches that were originally planned. There's now a keypad by the front door and one in the middle (between kitchen area and sunroom) that can control everything, and a few individual switches by other doors. You can press 'all off' by the front door when leaving and all 6 or 7 circuits in the main area plus the sunroom, hallway, stairs, and foyer turn off.
- elf25 10y ago
  I have X-10 at two of my homes to operate a couple of lights, no real problems to report.
Johnythree 10y ago
If you don't mind the radio interference and the general flakiness of HomePlug...
- furyg3 10y ago
  Back in the day X10 (very simple protocol, on/off/dim, no security) actually worked very well, with only a small delay. It's really horrible that 15+ years in the future it's all still so awful. It's really, really hard to beat the user-interface (or security!) of a traditional light switch or dimmer. I'd like to have control without getting up, automate some things, or change the colors, but that all comes at a huge cost.
  - legooolas 10y ago
    This is possible, but requires different wiring to light switches, to provide power there (which isn't common) and for manufacturers of replacement switches, bulbs etc to care about security. The former isn't something which is happening yet anywhere that I know of (in the UK at least, even in new-build houses), and the latter needs pressure from consumers which isn't happening for anything in the internet-of-things space yet :/ (edit: don't try to use markdown in HN comments, however automatic it has become for you :)
    - lucaspiller 10y ago
      I think the wiring issue is mainly a UK thing. The standard way of wiring light switches in the UK is live and neutral go to the ceiling rose, and then another two wires goes to the switch which joins the live when on. This reduces the amount of wire needed, which stems back to after WWII when copper was in short supply. I've just bought an apartment in mainland Europe and the live and neutral go to the switch, and from there two wires go to the rose.
      - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
        This is also the standard way in the USA. Its called a switch leg.
noja 10y ago
Powerline doesn't work when you have a house with multiple circuits.
- wyldfire 10y ago
  That's not true. Current-gen stuff works for me across circuit breakers. I haven't enabled any encryption, though, so it's probably packets in the clear that maybe even my neighbor could get. cringe
  - jon-wood 10y ago
    That led to a wonderful evening of debugging during which I was convinced someone was attacking my wireless network. I eventually worked out that my powerline adapters had connected to next door's circuit, and his DHCP server was slightly quicker than mine.
mkj 10y ago
WiFi chips are a fair bit cheaper, and don't need to integrate with the mains voltage side.

legooolas 10y ago

That's exactly what X10 does, but it's fallen out of favour in recent times. (I've not used it so I couldn't say why)

JoshTriplett 10y ago
I used to use X10. Then I discovered the hard way that buying low-bidder electronics that plug directly into mains power is a really bad idea: one of the control boxes that plugged into a wall outlet started to get hot enough to create a blackened spot on its label.
gregmac 10y ago
X10 is particularly horrible for a couple of reasons. For one I'll quote from the Wikipedia entry: > In the 60 Hz AC current flow, a bit value of one is represented by a 1 millisecond burst of 120 kHz at the zero crossing point (nominally 0°, but within 200 microseconds of the zero crossing point), immediately followed by the absence of a pulse. A zero value is represented by the absence of 120 kHz at the zero crossing point (pulse), immediately followed by the presence of a pulse. Command sequences are only 2 bytes (16 bits) long, and for certain commands ("all lights on", "all lights off") four of those bits are even ignored. This means it's quite common for electrical noise to be mistaken for signals. The other problem is increasingly we have more noisy electrical gear on the line, and more equipment that absorbs/filters the actual signals (UPSes, and pretty much any switch-mode power supply in computers, TVs, etc). I unfortunately put in a bunch of X10 stuff at my parent's cottage many years ago, and it had this problem. Somewhere between every couple days and every few weeks, all the lights would turn on. Sometimes while no one was there, sometimes in the middle of night when you were sleeping :) We since replaced it with Insteon dual-band, which uses both wireless and powerline, and it's significantly more reliable (and all those problems have disappeared). In case anyone's interested, we used this stuff because the main floor is basically one big open concept space, and has entrances on all four sides (deck, sunroom, stairs and front door) and the 'smart' switches avoided having to install a stupid amount of 3- and 4-way switches that were originally planned. There's now a keypad by the front door and one in the middle (between kitchen area and sunroom) that can control everything, and a few individual switches by other doors. You can press 'all off' by the front door when leaving and all 6 or 7 circuits in the main area plus the sunroom, hallway, stairs, and foyer turn off.
elf25 10y ago
I have X-10 at two of my homes to operate a couple of lights, no real problems to report.

Johnythree 10y ago

If you don't mind the radio interference and the general flakiness of HomePlug...

furyg3 10y ago
Back in the day X10 (very simple protocol, on/off/dim, no security) actually worked very well, with only a small delay. It's really horrible that 15+ years in the future it's all still so awful. It's really, really hard to beat the user-interface (or security!) of a traditional light switch or dimmer. I'd like to have control without getting up, automate some things, or change the colors, but that all comes at a huge cost.
- legooolas 10y ago
  This is possible, but requires different wiring to light switches, to provide power there (which isn't common) and for manufacturers of replacement switches, bulbs etc to care about security. The former isn't something which is happening yet anywhere that I know of (in the UK at least, even in new-build houses), and the latter needs pressure from consumers which isn't happening for anything in the internet-of-things space yet :/ (edit: don't try to use markdown in HN comments, however automatic it has become for you :)
  - lucaspiller 10y ago
    I think the wiring issue is mainly a UK thing. The standard way of wiring light switches in the UK is live and neutral go to the ceiling rose, and then another two wires goes to the switch which joins the live when on. This reduces the amount of wire needed, which stems back to after WWII when copper was in short supply. I've just bought an apartment in mainland Europe and the live and neutral go to the switch, and from there two wires go to the rose.
    - CapitalistCartr 10y ago
      This is also the standard way in the USA. Its called a switch leg.

noja 10y ago

Powerline doesn't work when you have a house with multiple circuits.

wyldfire 10y ago
That's not true. Current-gen stuff works for me across circuit breakers. I haven't enabled any encryption, though, so it's probably packets in the clear that maybe even my neighbor could get. cringe
- jon-wood 10y ago
  That led to a wonderful evening of debugging during which I was convinced someone was attacking my wireless network. I eventually worked out that my powerline adapters had connected to next door's circuit, and his DHCP server was slightly quicker than mine.

mkj 10y ago

WiFi chips are a fair bit cheaper, and don't need to integrate with the mains voltage side.