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It seems it's communicated with a "black life matters" background. Isn't there a general problem of the police being overly brutal and using its authority in a

by tajen 10y ago

It seems it's communicated with a "black life matters" background. Isn't there a general problem of the police being overly brutal and using its authority in a malevolent way in USA, whether augmented by racism or not? I live in France, where we've just had terrorist attacks, and I'm afraid we'll meet the same pattern, 15 years later than USA: - People want the police to do its job (securing the streets, which goes from checking car insurances to being detectives on terrorism), - So they vote for more police, - The police doesn't do much more than assaulting easy targets, picking up girls who come to lodge a charge (true story), and walk on cyclist lanes (not much traffic enforcement because it's unpopular and not much detective work because it's risky), - So people vote even more right-wing, - Police has more powers, but still doesn't do its job much, and assaults even more weak people, - Then we get people who kill police (like in Dallas) or burn police cars (like in Paris) because they're abusing their power. Already, President Hollande made the same talk and took the same path on 13th Nov 2015 as Bush on 11th Sept 2001, so I'm a little afraid there's a trend were. Now what societal changes could happen that would disrupt a race to the bottom of police brutality, like in USA?

pieter_mj 10y ago
Except in Europe there's no second amendmend, so a possible raise in police brutality is probably more tied to racist conceptions.
krrrh 10y ago
I think there are two other historical trends at play in the US (and elsewhere). - A lot of shitty policing, and covering up of crimes by police has always existed, and we're just much more aware of it because everyone now has a video camera in their pockets. It's possible that police brutality had always been this bad, or worse. - The general fitness and preparedness level of police has likely declined along with the rest of society. A police officer should be confident that they can handle and control a situation physically, but they are more inclined to rely on tasers or guns if they feel like they could get overwhelmed by a situation. In Sam Harris's interview with Jocko Willink he mentions a video[1] of 3 large cops taking over 5 minutes to subdue a half-naked man in socks. It's hard to watch it and believe that the cops had any adequate training or confidence in how to handle a situation without relying on weapons. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O-QEsv0ZEg&app=desktop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O-QEsv0ZEg&app=desktop
- thaumasiotes 10y ago
  > A police officer should be confident that they can handle and control a situation physically, but they are more inclined to rely on tasers or guns if they feel like they could get overwhelmed by a situation. This would have pretty dramatic effects on the number of female police officers.
  - yorwba 10y ago
    I used to train Judo at a Dojo also used by the local police. Believe me, the female officers could throw me around just fine.
- dade_ 10y ago
  Justifiable or not, 604 homicides by police so far this year is far is rediculous. If my understanding is correct, the vast majority of violent policing is associated to a relatively small percentage of officers. Opening up police data is urgent, is there an effort making any headway? http://killedbypolice.net/ http://killedbypolice.net/
  - omegaham 10y ago
    > the vast majority of violent policing is associated to a relatively small percentage of officers Isn't the vast majority of crime associated with small areas? People rag on Chicago for having lots of murders, but if you look at http://www.heyjackass.com http://www.heyjackass.com, you end up finding that most of the shootings occur in only a few neighborhoods. Similarly, most police officers are not patrolling in a war zone. Where I would love to see the data is a comparison of officers with their peers. If you're an officer with Chicago's Finest, you probably have a group of peers who patrol the same neighborhoods as you. If you're grabbing your gun five times as often as the other guys on your squad, it's difficult to make the argument that random shit is only happening to you.
  - Fuxy 10y ago
    I'm waiting for when it will be a requirement to wear a bullet proof vest if you're a regular citizens that happens to be black and you are driving anywhere. Us policies and laws are getting more and more ridiculous every year and enforcement non existent if you're the police so would anybody be surprised if the victim gets blamed for getting shot?
jmnicolas 10y ago
I live in France and I'm not worried, France and the US are apple and orange comparison : even when the French Police kills a known felon that was shooting at them it's a huge scandal because he may or may not have faced the cop that killed him (recent story). Look at the video were the police car was torched and the cop beaten with an iron bar. Do you think the perps would still be alive in the US ? The French cop didn't even think about using his gun and was commended for it.
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  A recent article, suggested that part of this was the standard for when you can legally use force is very different: "most European countries conform to the European Convention on Human Rights, which impels its 47 signatories to permit only deadly force that is “absolutely necessary” to achieve a lawful purpose. Killings excused under America’s “reasonable belief” standards often violate Europe’s “absolute necessity” standards." http://theconversation.com/why-do-american-cops-kill-so-many-compared-to-european-cops-49696 http://theconversation.com/why-do-american-cops-kill-so-many... They also suggest very poor training of cops is a big part of it, as well as racism and the prevalance of guns.
xbmcuser 10y ago
The problem is not just the police in the US to me it is the easy access to heavy weaponry by normal people. If it was hard for normal citizens to have guns police would not be shoot first ask question later mode all the time.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
pjc50 10y ago
The social and racial divide becomes a problem in itself, which makes it much easier for the police to rationalise the use of excessive force. The UK had this problem with the Royal Ulster Constabulary, and more generally the policing of Northern Ireland with troops. The only way out of it was the restructuring, renaming, and re-populating with affirmative action of the force as the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Another key part of the solution is a willingness to actually prosecute unlawful shootings. The key case here is Lee Clegg, a paratrooper on a roadside checkpoint who shot at a car driven by teenage joyriders that failed to stop. It was ruled that shooting after the car had passed was no longer justified. The US has got to this point because it is not willing to effectively prosecute the use of lethal force against black men where it is not absolutely required. The US also has a very flexible and expansive idea of "required". (PSNI are routinely armed, unlike most of the rest of the UK, except anti-terrorist patrols at airports and high security locations.)
- Joe8Bit 10y ago
  Fantastic point, I'd never thought to put this into the context of NI before. To emphasise what you've said, the root and brach reform that has happened in the RUC/policing in NI over the last decade (or more) can't be underestimated. Among the biggest factors, as I perceive them are both top down and bottom up: * Engaging the civilian leadership of the effected Catholic/Republican communities in leadership and accountability positions (e.g. Sin Fein/Stormont) * Making on the ground community relationships with the effected communities a huge priority, through: targeted engagement; community relations and frankly, demonstrating the RUC's value through active/effective community policing and crime reduction. * The confrontation and acknowledgement of the previous injustices. Truth and reconciliation is key. It's been a LONG and painful journey interlinked that isn't finished, but it really could serve as a great lesson to improving minority/police relationships in the US.
  - pjc50 10y ago
    It absolutely could serve as a model for community reconciliation, and ending terrorism. Unfortunately it requires the people in power to back down and treat those they regard as inferior with justice and respect, which makes it a hard sell. Which reminds me, the odious Michael Gove wrote in 2000 against the NI peace process: "it enshrines a vision of human rights which privileges contending minorities at the expense of the democratic majority". But that's exactly why human rights are important: protecting the minority from 'democratic' but unjust treatment from the majority. I keep trying to bring NI analogies into US gun discussions because when people talk about armed resistance to the government being a constitutional right, that's what it looks like in practice. It's awful. Mind you, last time I ran the numbers, a random resident of 70s Belfast was less likely than a random resident of 80s Detroit to be murdered. America is a violent country.
Razengan 10y ago
> Now what societal changes could happen that would disrupt a race to the bottom of police brutality, like in USA? Robot cops with open-source A.I., verifiable firmware, and a public log of all their decisions. As long as humans are given any sort of power over other humans, shit will happen. No matter where it is, what era it is.
- bigheadpercoli 10y ago
  Chappie: No. I can't shoot people. Chappie no crimes! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappie_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappie_(film)
toomanythings3 10y ago
So the police cause terrorism?

by tajen 10y ago

pieter_mj 10y ago

Except in Europe there's no second amendmend, so a possible raise in police brutality is probably more tied to racist conceptions.

krrrh 10y ago

I think there are two other historical trends at play in the US (and elsewhere). - A lot of shitty policing, and covering up of crimes by police has always existed, and we're just much more aware of it because everyone now has a video camera in their pockets. It's possible that police brutality had always been this bad, or worse. - The general fitness and preparedness level of police has likely declined along with the rest of society. A police officer should be confident that they can handle and control a situation physically, but they are more inclined to rely on tasers or guns if they feel like they could get overwhelmed by a situation. In Sam Harris's interview with Jocko Willink he mentions a video[1] of 3 large cops taking over 5 minutes to subdue a half-naked man in socks. It's hard to watch it and believe that the cops had any adequate training or confidence in how to handle a situation without relying on weapons. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O-QEsv0ZEg&app=desktop https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2O-QEsv0ZEg&app=desktop

thaumasiotes 10y ago
> A police officer should be confident that they can handle and control a situation physically, but they are more inclined to rely on tasers or guns if they feel like they could get overwhelmed by a situation. This would have pretty dramatic effects on the number of female police officers.
- yorwba 10y ago
  I used to train Judo at a Dojo also used by the local police. Believe me, the female officers could throw me around just fine.
dade_ 10y ago
Justifiable or not, 604 homicides by police so far this year is far is rediculous. If my understanding is correct, the vast majority of violent policing is associated to a relatively small percentage of officers. Opening up police data is urgent, is there an effort making any headway? http://killedbypolice.net/ http://killedbypolice.net/
- omegaham 10y ago
  > the vast majority of violent policing is associated to a relatively small percentage of officers Isn't the vast majority of crime associated with small areas? People rag on Chicago for having lots of murders, but if you look at http://www.heyjackass.com http://www.heyjackass.com, you end up finding that most of the shootings occur in only a few neighborhoods. Similarly, most police officers are not patrolling in a war zone. Where I would love to see the data is a comparison of officers with their peers. If you're an officer with Chicago's Finest, you probably have a group of peers who patrol the same neighborhoods as you. If you're grabbing your gun five times as often as the other guys on your squad, it's difficult to make the argument that random shit is only happening to you.
- Fuxy 10y ago
  I'm waiting for when it will be a requirement to wear a bullet proof vest if you're a regular citizens that happens to be black and you are driving anywhere. Us policies and laws are getting more and more ridiculous every year and enforcement non existent if you're the police so would anybody be surprised if the victim gets blamed for getting shot?

jmnicolas 10y ago

I live in France and I'm not worried, France and the US are apple and orange comparison : even when the French Police kills a known felon that was shooting at them it's a huge scandal because he may or may not have faced the cop that killed him (recent story). Look at the video were the police car was torched and the cop beaten with an iron bar. Do you think the perps would still be alive in the US ? The French cop didn't even think about using his gun and was commended for it.

ZeroGravitas 10y ago
A recent article, suggested that part of this was the standard for when you can legally use force is very different: "most European countries conform to the European Convention on Human Rights, which impels its 47 signatories to permit only deadly force that is “absolutely necessary” to achieve a lawful purpose. Killings excused under America’s “reasonable belief” standards often violate Europe’s “absolute necessity” standards." http://theconversation.com/why-do-american-cops-kill-so-many-compared-to-european-cops-49696 http://theconversation.com/why-do-american-cops-kill-so-many... They also suggest very poor training of cops is a big part of it, as well as racism and the prevalance of guns.

xbmcuser 10y ago

The problem is not just the police in the US to me it is the easy access to heavy weaponry by normal people. If it was hard for normal citizens to have guns police would not be shoot first ask question later mode all the time.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

pjc50 10y ago

The social and racial divide becomes a problem in itself, which makes it much easier for the police to rationalise the use of excessive force. The UK had this problem with the Royal Ulster Constabulary, and more generally the policing of Northern Ireland with troops. The only way out of it was the restructuring, renaming, and re-populating with affirmative action of the force as the Police Service of Northern Ireland. Another key part of the solution is a willingness to actually prosecute unlawful shootings. The key case here is Lee Clegg, a paratrooper on a roadside checkpoint who shot at a car driven by teenage joyriders that failed to stop. It was ruled that shooting after the car had passed was no longer justified. The US has got to this point because it is not willing to effectively prosecute the use of lethal force against black men where it is not absolutely required. The US also has a very flexible and expansive idea of "required". (PSNI are routinely armed, unlike most of the rest of the UK, except anti-terrorist patrols at airports and high security locations.)

Joe8Bit 10y ago
Fantastic point, I'd never thought to put this into the context of NI before. To emphasise what you've said, the root and brach reform that has happened in the RUC/policing in NI over the last decade (or more) can't be underestimated. Among the biggest factors, as I perceive them are both top down and bottom up: * Engaging the civilian leadership of the effected Catholic/Republican communities in leadership and accountability positions (e.g. Sin Fein/Stormont) * Making on the ground community relationships with the effected communities a huge priority, through: targeted engagement; community relations and frankly, demonstrating the RUC's value through active/effective community policing and crime reduction. * The confrontation and acknowledgement of the previous injustices. Truth and reconciliation is key. It's been a LONG and painful journey interlinked that isn't finished, but it really could serve as a great lesson to improving minority/police relationships in the US.
- pjc50 10y ago
  It absolutely could serve as a model for community reconciliation, and ending terrorism. Unfortunately it requires the people in power to back down and treat those they regard as inferior with justice and respect, which makes it a hard sell. Which reminds me, the odious Michael Gove wrote in 2000 against the NI peace process: "it enshrines a vision of human rights which privileges contending minorities at the expense of the democratic majority". But that's exactly why human rights are important: protecting the minority from 'democratic' but unjust treatment from the majority. I keep trying to bring NI analogies into US gun discussions because when people talk about armed resistance to the government being a constitutional right, that's what it looks like in practice. It's awful. Mind you, last time I ran the numbers, a random resident of 70s Belfast was less likely than a random resident of 80s Detroit to be murdered. America is a violent country.

Razengan 10y ago

> Now what societal changes could happen that would disrupt a race to the bottom of police brutality, like in USA? Robot cops with open-source A.I., verifiable firmware, and a public log of all their decisions. As long as humans are given any sort of power over other humans, shit will happen. No matter where it is, what era it is.

bigheadpercoli 10y ago
Chappie: No. I can't shoot people. Chappie no crimes! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappie_(film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chappie_(film)

toomanythings3 10y ago

So the police cause terrorism?