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Hope You Enjoy the Smell of Napalm in the Morning (Apple vs. Google)
- alexgartrell 17y agoI know there are like a million Google Employees here, what do you guys think of the 'competition'? Is it real or just convenient? Any Apple Employees?
- anigbrowl 17y agoWell, I'm sure therms of employment preclude discussing such things publicly. But it might explain why a fellow on the train was giving me dirty looks the other evening while I was playing with a Nexus one. When he turned to get off I noticed an Apple ID badge hanging from his belt. Having said that, I saw probably 10 iPhone users in the same carriage, and as yet they have no truly compelling reasons to switch.
- jmtulloss 17y agoI haven't seen any evidence that Apple is poaching Google's employees. It's quite possible that the employee in question approached Apple, not the other way around.
- aresant 17y ago"Hence the patent suit against HTC. That’s all about Google - about creating a situation where Android is no longer a free operating system for handset makers in the U.S., because the cost of using it is an expensive legal defense against Apple." Spot on.
- dminor 17y agoI don't think other manufacturers really need to worry about it too much -- if Apple sues another Android adopter, they'll basically force Google into suing to protect Android.
- ZeroGravitas 17y agoWhere is the "large phone" quote from? I heard it before but thought this was Schmitt talking about Android tablets, not dissing the iPad? I'm strangely pleased at how rattled Apple are (by this account at least).
- houseabsolute 17y agoI agree, and I am pleased about it because I thought it was impossible.
- mcantelon 17y agoI'm thankful they agree on HTML 5 at any rate.
- ZeroGravitas 17y agoI was just about to suggest that if Google wanted to shaft Apple then one good way would be to introduce a royalty-free video format for HTML5 <video> that Apple doesn't support in its OS, its browser or its iPods and iPhones. Suddenly 130 million dollars for On2 doesn't seem that bad an investment. (Obviously Apple could adopt a royalty free format, but would they unless forced to?)
- bbatsell 17y agoHow would Apple be shafted in this scenario? Sure, there are no On2 hardware decoding chips in the iPhone, so battery life would suffer a bit, but... is there anything more than that?
- ZeroGravitas 17y agoConsider Flash vs Apple. There's nothing stopping Apple implementing Flash, they just don't want to. If Flash becomes indispensable for the mobile web Apple will be forced, eventually, to support it. But up until that point (which may never come) that it becomes inevitable, and probably for a long time after that point is reached and Apple actually caves, all that Flash content will not be accessible to users of iPhones or iPads, which reduces their value to consumers compared with Android equivalents that do support Flash. So the same as that, but with Google codecs and web content in them in place of Flash, but worse because in this scenario Apple probably wouldn't support them on the desktop either.
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- Herring 17y ago>We did not enter the search business, Jobs said. They entered the phone business. Make no mistake they want to kill the iPhone. We won’t let them, he says. Looks like someone's still a bit touchy about microsoft. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microsoft_Corporation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Microso...
- bodhi 17y agoExcept that Jobs wasn't at Apple between 1988-1994, when the lawsuit was in progress. But maybe he still had some emotional investment in the matter? :)
- philwelch 17y agohttp://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=A_Rich_Neighbor_Named_Xerox.txt&characters=Bill%20Gates&sortOrder=Sort%20by%20Date&detail=medium http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&s... Hmm...I think I might submit that. EDIT: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1205911 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1205911
- callmeed 17y ago"But the situation has gotten past the usual level of competitive vigor" Really, how? And so what? I wouldn't want a mutual advisor or board member either if I was Jobs/Schmidt. Haven't there been rivals (even bitter rivals) since the dawn of capitalism? As long as everyone fights legally/fairly, what's the problem? When I did IT at a UPS call center, managers would take shots at FedEx at least once a week in morning meetings (higher-ups were so pissed that FedEx was in "Cast Away", it was hilarious). People switch sides and take better jobs in any industry. Again, as long as there's no NDAs being violated, what's the problem? Is Apple out of line with the patent issue? Other than maybe that, I don't see what's abnormal.
- baguasquirrel 17y agoIt's not abnormal, but it sure is amusing.
- csmeder 17y ago>"But the situation has gotten past the usual level of competitive vigor" >Really, how? And so what? He gives specific examples in the article. "I.e. it’s not particularly interesting that Apple hired Pittman, or that Google lost him, but it is interesting that Apple poached a director from Google, period. That didn’t use to happen." "Mr. Campbell was forced to choose, and according to a person with knowledge of the situation, he dropped his formal responsibilities at Google, although he is still informally mentoring executives there." This is new, they have never asked advisors to take sides. In addition its not mentioned here but Jobs use to advise Sergey Brin. They were friends and helped eachother. This is no longer true. This is new... "[Sergey] Brin was also known to take long walks with Mr. Jobs near his house in Palo Alto, and in the nearby foothills of the Santa Cruz Mountains. According to colleagues, they discussed the future of technology and planned some joint ventures that never came to fruition – like a collaborative effort to develop a version of Apple’s Safari browser for Windows." - http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/technology/14brawl.html?pagewanted=1&src=tptw http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/14/technology/14brawl.html?pa...
- philwelch 17y agoAnyone else here remember the scenes from Pirates of Silicon Valley where Steve Jobs is shouting at Bill Gates about ripping off the Mac? A few years from now I bet this will all make for a good sequel.
- wmf 17y agoFake Steve is already writing it: http://techcrunch.com/2010/03/16/fake-steve-jobs-larry-charles-working-on-epix-silicon-valley-comedy-series/ http://techcrunch.com/2010/03/16/fake-steve-jobs-larry-charl...
- Herring 17y agoI'm sure the whole tech scene hopes so, but there are some important differences this time around. I only know enough about law to realize it's extremely complex.
- Timothee 17y ago"I can’t see Apple building its own search engine, but perhaps they really are building their own maps service — hence their purchase of PlaceBase last July." I found this paragraph towards the end interesting: I was thinking recently about how it can sometimes be difficult for two guys in a garage to get traction on their ideas/products, because to really leverage them you might need a whole set of products around it. They're good ideas but would be a part of a big system that you can't build unless you're Google, Microsoft, etc. (e.g. if you want to do something where you access the data of emails, you need to piggyback on other companies' email systems) So, I found this last part interesting because it puts Apple in a similar situation as the two guys in their garage, at a larger scale, where they (might) have to develop their own map service, where they have to get involved more in online services (MobileMe), etc., even though it's not their core competency[1]. The same way I would not use the two guys' product if it doesn't work with my existing email account, some will get an Android phone just because it integrates perfectly with their Gmail and Google Voice account. That's something Apple will need to focus on more IMO. We're heading towards having everything just online (pictures, documents, backups, music…) and Google definitely has the advantage there. [1] I'm not saying they don't know how to build online services. iTunes is a proof that they do, but it doesn't (really) have an online front-end.
- DenisM 17y agoIt can also kill them - imperial overstretch.
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]
- ww520 17y agoIt's interesting to see Google is stepping on lots people's toes: Apple (phone), Microsoft (search/apps/mail), Facebook & Twitter (Buzz), Amazon (AppEngine), Yahoo (the fake ad deal). Who else? Sit back and pass the popcorn.
- borism 17y agowhat I'm worried the most about is that while the big boys play, MSFT will sit and wait and then when everyone is weak enough the Borg will strike back and Evil Empire will reemerge.
- antipaganda 17y agoDon't forget the most important toes of all: China.
- jrockway 17y agoNot really? Apple seems perfectly happy to let Chinese slave children build their phones.
- whatusername 17y agoreally? Wasn't the case that they audited their suppliers and remedied the issue of children working for them. Apple are gaining lots of black marks in my book - but I think they don't deserve the crap they've taken from the kids working issue.
- raganwald 17y ago"Smart companies try to commoditize their products' complements." --Joel Spolsky, Strategy Letter V http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/StrategyLetterV.html http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/StrategyLetterV.html Google is trying its damnedest to commoditize the smart phone business. It would love for Apple, HTC, and everyone else to go down the same road PC manufacturers went down and cut their own throats competing on price. Only instead of taxing the manufacturers with a fat fee for each copy of Android, they will make their money owning the advertising and search business.
- pyre 17y agoWhy does Google necessarily care of Apple drives the price of the iPhone down? As long as Android phones can remain popular with low price points it will be the same as the current desktop/laptop market. Apple prices their products into a 'premium' space targeted at customers with more money while everyone else competes on price. The high price of the iPhone doesn't necessarily prevent a commoditized smart phone market. I guess the question becomes: Why does Apple think that it needs to 'own' the (smart) phone business to be successful? They've been able to remain popular and profitable while keeping their products as a premium brand. Why does the cellphone market need to be so much different?
- andreyf 17y agoWhy does the cellphone market need to be so much different? Because Microsoft is making money selling software and commoditizing hardware, while Google sees both software and hardware as a compliment to their business (and so, gives software away for free (hardware is commoditized enough)). By comparison, Apple is trying to make profit off markup in precisely those areas: hardware + software. In short, the numbers are very different. While laptops are now split nicely at $1000 (<1000 - mostly PC's, >1000 - mostly Macs), what we're talking about is devices Apple wants to sell for $700 soon costing less than half of that for similar "Android" manufacturers. I forget the marketing-speak explaining this, but that gap is a big problem. In summary, Google wants a world where both hardware and software are a commodity. For Apple, this is bad, bad, bad, as that's precisely the market they're trying to make their markup.
- donaldc 17y agoI'm going to guess that Apple is in the weaker (or at least more vulnerable) position, given that it was the first to resort to lawsuits. I'm not sure they really have an effective counter to Google entering the smartphone market.
- mellis 17y agoMaking better smartphones seems like a decent counter strategy.
- donaldc 17y agoObviously Apple needs to do that, or they're dead. But they do not appear to be able to threaten Google's core business the way that Google is able to threaten Apple's.
- ecq 17y agoGoogle's getting bullied by China, sued by Viacom and outmaneuvered by Apple left and right. Media companies (Fox, Viacom, etc.) are ganging up against Google. Bing is gaining market share, and with Google pulling out of China god knows what that will do to Google's stock price. Apple's got $40B cash vs. Google's $24B. I think Apple's got the advantage vs. Google.
- symesc 17y agoWhat's interesting to me is how big a shift mobile represents to Apple's strategy. Gruber was first to convince me that Apple didn't care about the business that Dell was in. Dell could have it. No margin. Apple believed they built computers for the "elite" consumer who had taste or money or both and wanted a premium experience. They played there because that's where the margin is. This situation (highlighted by iPhone vs. Android) is a stark departure for Apple, and it probably illustrates one of two things: 1. The competition is better, or 2. The switching costs for phones is much lower than for computers, and by costs I mean both money and the hassle of migrating data and applications. Google is doing an amazing job on both fronts. If the iPhone didn't exist, Android would be the clear leader in this market. And when it comes to switching costs, Google is eradicating them: I use Gmail, Google Calendar, and Picasa. All work on both platforms very well. And I use Google Contacts as my primary rolodex. I don't use Mobile Me because Google provides the equivalent for free (Google's services are probably better, really). Apple really doesn't have any hooks into me. If Google can deliver a compelling alternative to iTunes, I could move tomorrow and the only costs I'd incur would be walking away from the $30 in Apps I've purchased. Compare that to my trying to move from OS X to Windows. Apple is rightly terrified of Google. And it probably gets worse when the Chrome OS hits the market. I love love love my MacBook Pro and my iPhone. But increasingly they are delivery vehicles for Google services. The irreplaceable part of that equation is Google, primarily because I'm not interested in Microsoft's or Yahoo's or Apple's alternatives.
- blantonl 17y agoSorry, but I see this as a very micro-focused example. And my argument revolves around iTunes. The sheer amount of content that apple has sold through iTunes would surely suggest that moving to another platform would be a major barrier to transferring to another service. As you said, Google indeed is doing a fantastic job on a lot of fronts. But from what I see, in this "war" Apple is accomplishing a well executed flank attack by controlling both the hardware and software platforms. Apple will never get into the search business, but there are so many outliers that many companies (Google, MS, Yahoo etc) have that Apple can out-flank and simple dominate in the long term. In addition, I'm convinced that Apple is sitting on the AppleTV since they don't yet in their eyes have enough control over games, media content and associated distribution. But, they are headed there, and I would expect that the app Store will soon make it's way to the apple TV (and variants) platform.
- martythemaniak 17y agoApple seems to be fighting a losing battle here. Google has a larger war chest - that is more products which people find great value in, than Apple and they are fighting on the side of openness which is more in the interests of users. At the same time, I do appreciate the fact that Apple has instilled a sense of aesthetics into the industry.
- ecq 17y agoGoogle's only major cash cow is search. they know this that is why they are trying to get into apps. mobile, etc. throwing everything against the wall to see what sticks. other than search, Google doesn't have anything.
- verisimilitude 17y agoWhile I can't disagree with your idea of aesthetics, I would argue that Apple's entire product line is not about an aesthetic sense as much as a design imperative. In promotional interviews for products (iPad, recent iMacs) you'll find Ives repeatedly mentioning how many unnecessary elements he and his team have _removed_ from products. This seems to be the ideal from which their industrial design team works. Cf. Steve Jobs quote: “Most people make the mistake of thinking design is what it looks like. People think it’s this veneer — that the designers are handed this box and told, ‘Make it look good!’ That’s not what we think design is. It’s not just what it looks like and feels like. Design is how it works.” That quote was curated by Gruber: http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/03/20/design-is-how-it-works http://daringfireball.net/linked/2009/03/20/design-is-how-it...
- deleted 17y ago[deleted]