4 ms·

Why would bees willingly share with humans?

PavlovsCat 10y ago
Why do some humans help a wounded or hungry/thirsty animal they come across, even when there are no other humans around to signal virtue to? Why wouldn't a bee (colony) be nice just because it can and likes to? I'm not saying that is the reason, but why can't that be the reason, or part of it?
- dpratt71 10y ago
  I think it could be argued that the behavior you ascribe to humans exists for the same reason that some dogs chase after cars. That is, it is an ingrained behavior that tends to enhance our survival and is sometimes expressed or triggered in contexts where it doesn't really make sense. In truth, I believe that life has a spiritual dimension, that my life has purpose, blah blah blah, but I find it useful on occasion to temporarily 'forget' that I believe such things.
  - PavlovsCat 10y ago
    Okay, but bees are arguable even more social than we are, so the same might apply to them. I'm not saying that's the cause, that they recognize a person they like and let them have some honey, I guess they simply don't have a good enough reason to attack (which is not "free" for bees, either), and in the long run, it turned out to be useful to play nice with humans. But I don't know.. and I also wouldn't be surprised if bees are good judges of character and/or are generous, or have pity on us confused humans and wish they could do more to help than just giving us honey. In a general sense, liking life forms that don't actively threaten us, just enjoying there being other life, should be useful for all life, since all life kind of depends on the "tapestry of life" which sustains it as well. Doesn't mean it is so, but it wouldn't surprise me. I say this a lot but that's kind of my point, "why should this be ruled out, why would that be surprising", not so much making a positive claim as debating an implied negative one. In this [1] thread, someone linked the concept of biophilia, and I had to think of this discussion as well: if we allow for humans liking life "just because" or "for some reason", we should allow for that in animals, too. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12053272 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12053272
    - saalweachter 10y ago
      It doesn't really require any sophistication on the bee's part so much as a conscientious or unconscious understanding on the beekeeper's part of the bee's algorithms and their limitations. Bees don't really have a good rule for "giant, landscape-sized creature carefully disassembling hive -> sting that asshole". It's just not something a bee needs to have a rule for. They do essentially have a rule for "giant animal destroying the hive -> sting that asshole", but that's because smashing a hive also smashes some bees, and they do have a rule for "smell a smashed bee -> go freakin' nuts". So the rules for barefoot beekeeping boil down to "be extremely careful and don't squish any bees". Most of the bees' defenses are actually focused on other insects, especially other bees. Robbing by other bees is a much bigger threat than robbing by the landscape. A bee's sting is only fatal to the bee when it stings something like a human, and its stinger gets stuck in our skin. When a bee stings another bee or other insect, it can sting as many times as it likes. So it's more of a surprise to the bee when stinging us proves fatal, than some sort of altruistic suicide mission for the greater good of the hive.

Why do some humans help a wounded or hungry/thirsty animal they come across, even when there are no other humans around to signal virtue to? Why wouldn't a bee (colony) be nice just because it can and likes to? I'm not saying that is the reason, but why can't that be the reason, or part of it?

dpratt71 10y ago
I think it could be argued that the behavior you ascribe to humans exists for the same reason that some dogs chase after cars. That is, it is an ingrained behavior that tends to enhance our survival and is sometimes expressed or triggered in contexts where it doesn't really make sense. In truth, I believe that life has a spiritual dimension, that my life has purpose, blah blah blah, but I find it useful on occasion to temporarily 'forget' that I believe such things.
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  Okay, but bees are arguable even more social than we are, so the same might apply to them. I'm not saying that's the cause, that they recognize a person they like and let them have some honey, I guess they simply don't have a good enough reason to attack (which is not "free" for bees, either), and in the long run, it turned out to be useful to play nice with humans. But I don't know.. and I also wouldn't be surprised if bees are good judges of character and/or are generous, or have pity on us confused humans and wish they could do more to help than just giving us honey. In a general sense, liking life forms that don't actively threaten us, just enjoying there being other life, should be useful for all life, since all life kind of depends on the "tapestry of life" which sustains it as well. Doesn't mean it is so, but it wouldn't surprise me. I say this a lot but that's kind of my point, "why should this be ruled out, why would that be surprising", not so much making a positive claim as debating an implied negative one. In this [1] thread, someone linked the concept of biophilia, and I had to think of this discussion as well: if we allow for humans liking life "just because" or "for some reason", we should allow for that in animals, too. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12053272 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12053272
  - saalweachter 10y ago
    It doesn't really require any sophistication on the bee's part so much as a conscientious or unconscious understanding on the beekeeper's part of the bee's algorithms and their limitations. Bees don't really have a good rule for "giant, landscape-sized creature carefully disassembling hive -> sting that asshole". It's just not something a bee needs to have a rule for. They do essentially have a rule for "giant animal destroying the hive -> sting that asshole", but that's because smashing a hive also smashes some bees, and they do have a rule for "smell a smashed bee -> go freakin' nuts". So the rules for barefoot beekeeping boil down to "be extremely careful and don't squish any bees". Most of the bees' defenses are actually focused on other insects, especially other bees. Robbing by other bees is a much bigger threat than robbing by the landscape. A bee's sting is only fatal to the bee when it stings something like a human, and its stinger gets stuck in our skin. When a bee stings another bee or other insect, it can sting as many times as it likes. So it's more of a surprise to the bee when stinging us proves fatal, than some sort of altruistic suicide mission for the greater good of the hive.