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> All harvesting from bees is essentially stealing their food. Calling this stealing speaks more about humans than it does of bees. Why do we view bees as sel

> All harvesting from bees is essentially stealing their food. Calling this stealing speaks more about humans than it does of bees. Why do we view bees as selfish? Another, more charitable view, is that the bees willingly share with humans. But they sting, you say. Bees only sting if you move rapidly, destroy their home or you catch them on a bad day, like right before a storm. On sunny days I have successfully harvested honey from hives, in normal street clothes, with zero stings simply by moving carefully and staying calm. So why do we view bees as selfish creatures? Because we are selfish.

mathrawka 10y ago
Stealing does not mean we view bees as selfish. Stealing means we know it is not ours, yet we take it without consent.
- justinpombrio 10y ago
  > we know it is not ours Ownership is not a physical property of the world, it exists in the minds of people. The bees almost certainly have no notion of ownership, so saying that "we know it is not ours" speaks more about humans than it does of bees.
  - mchaver 10y ago
    I don't see why the concept of ownership could not exist in non-human beings. Animal concepts of territory seem like a form of ownership. This discusses some species of bees defending mating territories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory_(animal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory_(animal)
- ACow_Adonis 10y ago
  I hope I'm not the only hacker news reader who views the discussion/association of human social constructs and anthropomorphism such as property and consent to a colony of insects as hilariously comical... /and my mother was an entomologist, so I'm perfectly happy with allusions between humans/insects even if most polite/modern society find such offensive...
dpratt71 10y ago
Why would bees willingly share with humans?
- PavlovsCat 10y ago
  Why do some humans help a wounded or hungry/thirsty animal they come across, even when there are no other humans around to signal virtue to? Why wouldn't a bee (colony) be nice just because it can and likes to? I'm not saying that is the reason, but why can't that be the reason, or part of it?
  - dpratt71 10y ago
    I think it could be argued that the behavior you ascribe to humans exists for the same reason that some dogs chase after cars. That is, it is an ingrained behavior that tends to enhance our survival and is sometimes expressed or triggered in contexts where it doesn't really make sense. In truth, I believe that life has a spiritual dimension, that my life has purpose, blah blah blah, but I find it useful on occasion to temporarily 'forget' that I believe such things.
    - PavlovsCat 10y ago
      Okay, but bees are arguable even more social than we are, so the same might apply to them. I'm not saying that's the cause, that they recognize a person they like and let them have some honey, I guess they simply don't have a good enough reason to attack (which is not "free" for bees, either), and in the long run, it turned out to be useful to play nice with humans. But I don't know.. and I also wouldn't be surprised if bees are good judges of character and/or are generous, or have pity on us confused humans and wish they could do more to help than just giving us honey. In a general sense, liking life forms that don't actively threaten us, just enjoying there being other life, should be useful for all life, since all life kind of depends on the "tapestry of life" which sustains it as well. Doesn't mean it is so, but it wouldn't surprise me. I say this a lot but that's kind of my point, "why should this be ruled out, why would that be surprising", not so much making a positive claim as debating an implied negative one. In this [1] thread, someone linked the concept of biophilia, and I had to think of this discussion as well: if we allow for humans liking life "just because" or "for some reason", we should allow for that in animals, too. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12053272 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12053272
Retra 10y ago
It's a man-eat-bee-food world, and the bees aren't morally or physically empowered enough to defer this behavior.

mathrawka 10y ago

Stealing does not mean we view bees as selfish. Stealing means we know it is not ours, yet we take it without consent.

justinpombrio 10y ago
> we know it is not ours Ownership is not a physical property of the world, it exists in the minds of people. The bees almost certainly have no notion of ownership, so saying that "we know it is not ours" speaks more about humans than it does of bees.
- mchaver 10y ago
  I don't see why the concept of ownership could not exist in non-human beings. Animal concepts of territory seem like a form of ownership. This discusses some species of bees defending mating territories. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory_(animal) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory_(animal)
ACow_Adonis 10y ago
I hope I'm not the only hacker news reader who views the discussion/association of human social constructs and anthropomorphism such as property and consent to a colony of insects as hilariously comical... /and my mother was an entomologist, so I'm perfectly happy with allusions between humans/insects even if most polite/modern society find such offensive...

dpratt71 10y ago

Why would bees willingly share with humans?

PavlovsCat 10y ago
Why do some humans help a wounded or hungry/thirsty animal they come across, even when there are no other humans around to signal virtue to? Why wouldn't a bee (colony) be nice just because it can and likes to? I'm not saying that is the reason, but why can't that be the reason, or part of it?
- dpratt71 10y ago
  I think it could be argued that the behavior you ascribe to humans exists for the same reason that some dogs chase after cars. That is, it is an ingrained behavior that tends to enhance our survival and is sometimes expressed or triggered in contexts where it doesn't really make sense. In truth, I believe that life has a spiritual dimension, that my life has purpose, blah blah blah, but I find it useful on occasion to temporarily 'forget' that I believe such things.
  - PavlovsCat 10y ago
    Okay, but bees are arguable even more social than we are, so the same might apply to them. I'm not saying that's the cause, that they recognize a person they like and let them have some honey, I guess they simply don't have a good enough reason to attack (which is not "free" for bees, either), and in the long run, it turned out to be useful to play nice with humans. But I don't know.. and I also wouldn't be surprised if bees are good judges of character and/or are generous, or have pity on us confused humans and wish they could do more to help than just giving us honey. In a general sense, liking life forms that don't actively threaten us, just enjoying there being other life, should be useful for all life, since all life kind of depends on the "tapestry of life" which sustains it as well. Doesn't mean it is so, but it wouldn't surprise me. I say this a lot but that's kind of my point, "why should this be ruled out, why would that be surprising", not so much making a positive claim as debating an implied negative one. In this [1] thread, someone linked the concept of biophilia, and I had to think of this discussion as well: if we allow for humans liking life "just because" or "for some reason", we should allow for that in animals, too. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12053272 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12053272

Retra 10y ago

It's a man-eat-bee-food world, and the bees aren't morally or physically empowered enough to defer this behavior.