4 ms·

Running Is Always Blind

49 points by brahmwg 10y ago

jqrd 10y ago
Makes me think of orienteering running -- at the competitive level, you can't afford to slow down much (and definitely you can't stop running) just to look at the map and plan your route. So not only you're not looking at how rough the terrain you're stepping on right now is, your brain is also busy with evaluating different options and trying to optimize for the least effort to get from point A to point B (and repeat this 100 times or more in a race) -- for example, should I take the long way around the hill with rougher vegetation vs go straight up 100 meters elevation and down on the other side.
corecoder 10y ago
Interesting article, but I don't get why so much surprise at the notion that we don't consciously control every single muscle, joint and nerve as we run. We never ever consciously control every anything, period. Just try to list the movements of each phalanx as you tie your shoes or even scratch your head, and you'll easily see that we just have no idea.
- cel1ne 10y ago
  People still can't bear the idea that most of their lives are formed by emotional and physical routines.
- lloeki 10y ago
  Well, yes and no, my experience tells me it all depends on the level of control of your body that you have, and training for a particular task. Learning to ollie is a typical example of that: there are movements that you have to consciously apply, yet the best way to ollie is to not think about it and just do a ollie, as each movement isolated doesn't mean much and it's only when the whole thing connects together that it works [0]. As Rodney Mullen says [1], you can only be conscious about sub-movements that really don't exist by themselves (only as part of a larger move) and connect together to form (and possibly create) a movement or a trick. It's really hard to describe, because mostly you don't really think about it, you just feel it, but at the same time it's a conscious action on your part, kinda like meditation or doing a kata. [0]: Braille Skateboarding - 5 steps to better ollies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrOZxOTIv-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrOZxOTIv-g [1]: Rodney Mullen - Pop a ollie and innovate! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEm-wjPkegE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEm-wjPkegE
  - corecoder 10y ago
    Also: I can't skate, but I used to be able to juggle almost decently. Sure, learning to juggle involves some degree of conscious learning, but really the cerebellum does almost all the work. You look at someone doing a new trick and understand the understandable part, then you keep trying until you can perform the trick decently, and I ensure you that there is absolutely nothing you can explain afterwards that you couldn't before the training (once you get the understandable part).
  - corecoder 10y ago
    You surely can (and in certain circumstances must) consciously control some parts of your movements, but mostly you are aware of the high level goal and the "main" body part movements, but there's simply no way that you can control or even be aware of most of what your muscles do. In a situation as the ones you describe, you may be aware of relatively a lot simultaneous movements and perceptions you adjust for, but you're actually doing at least an order of magnitude more movements and adjustments, maybe two.
  - gerbilly 10y ago
    At first when you are trying to learn a new sensorimotor skill, you have to use directed thought and consciously try and perform the task, typically by breaking it down into separate movements. But at a certain point in this process the skill becomes implicit and you start to 'just do it.' You can continue to improve the skill at this point, but it requires less conscious control. Interestingly, if you try and over-control your movements after having reached the second stage, your performance will usually get worse. [1] Psychologists call the first kind of learning explicit and the second kind implicit learning.
- ksk 10y ago
  Well, because that isn't what the article said at all. You're conflating controlling every muscle with a high level planning of avoiding obstacles. The latter is what the article talks about.
oinsurance3 10y ago
You can't run from troubles, you can to face them and solve them
- crottypeter 10y ago
  Some problems are solved by running :-) http://theoatmeal.com/comics/running_shoes http://theoatmeal.com/comics/running_shoes
js2 10y ago
Jurek never looks down, no matter how uneven the ground may be. Scott Jurek is one of the greatest trail/ultra-runners of all time, but I find this hard to believe. Of course you don't look directly down at your feet, but your gaze (at least, my gaze) when trail running is a few feet in front of you, much closer than when running on a smooth surface. He must have a visual image of what's in front of him. I run a lot of road miles (60+/week), with the occasional trail run, and I'm not a very good trail runner (went down three times in a 12 mile trail run a couple weeks ago). I find trail running much more mentally taxing than road running. I'm constantly scanning the ground for trip hazards, then looking up for branches and turns. I don't dare look at my watch. If my attention flags for a second, that's exactly when a root grabs my foot or my toe slams into a rock. A lot of this may be due to poor technique (I don't lift my legs as much as I should) or the rather rugged single-track where I run. And then there's running poorly marked trails where you have to navigate as you go, which is another issue altogether. In any case, interesting article. Single-track trail running is definitely a different beast than road, track, or cross-country.
- LeifCarrotson 10y ago
  Technique/form and experience definitely make a big difference in trail running. I usually do about 30 mpw on trails, and my gaze is 10-20 meters ahead, or yes, at my watch. Peripheral vision, I think, plays a large role. That's a reflex you have to train. And single-track running shouldn't be that much different than cross country running: The races aren't meant to be held on golf courses!
  - js2 10y ago
    I didn't run in school so I haven't seen a lot of xc courses. I just occasionally run on a local xc course. It's all screened gravel, except for a single (long) grass hill. I've run a couple other xc courses and they've all been easy compared to the local single-track. I recently ran the UIUC xc course and it's an all grass loop around their arboretum with a single man-made "hill". The single-track in my area is very rugged, with lots of roots and exposed jagged rock, so I think that may be part of it too. But point taken.

49 points by brahmwg 10y ago

jqrd 10y ago

Makes me think of orienteering running -- at the competitive level, you can't afford to slow down much (and definitely you can't stop running) just to look at the map and plan your route. So not only you're not looking at how rough the terrain you're stepping on right now is, your brain is also busy with evaluating different options and trying to optimize for the least effort to get from point A to point B (and repeat this 100 times or more in a race) -- for example, should I take the long way around the hill with rougher vegetation vs go straight up 100 meters elevation and down on the other side.

corecoder 10y ago

Interesting article, but I don't get why so much surprise at the notion that we don't consciously control every single muscle, joint and nerve as we run. We never ever consciously control every anything, period. Just try to list the movements of each phalanx as you tie your shoes or even scratch your head, and you'll easily see that we just have no idea.

cel1ne 10y ago
People still can't bear the idea that most of their lives are formed by emotional and physical routines.
lloeki 10y ago
Well, yes and no, my experience tells me it all depends on the level of control of your body that you have, and training for a particular task. Learning to ollie is a typical example of that: there are movements that you have to consciously apply, yet the best way to ollie is to not think about it and just do a ollie, as each movement isolated doesn't mean much and it's only when the whole thing connects together that it works [0]. As Rodney Mullen says [1], you can only be conscious about sub-movements that really don't exist by themselves (only as part of a larger move) and connect together to form (and possibly create) a movement or a trick. It's really hard to describe, because mostly you don't really think about it, you just feel it, but at the same time it's a conscious action on your part, kinda like meditation or doing a kata. [0]: Braille Skateboarding - 5 steps to better ollies: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrOZxOTIv-g https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrOZxOTIv-g [1]: Rodney Mullen - Pop a ollie and innovate! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEm-wjPkegE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEm-wjPkegE
- corecoder 10y ago
  Also: I can't skate, but I used to be able to juggle almost decently. Sure, learning to juggle involves some degree of conscious learning, but really the cerebellum does almost all the work. You look at someone doing a new trick and understand the understandable part, then you keep trying until you can perform the trick decently, and I ensure you that there is absolutely nothing you can explain afterwards that you couldn't before the training (once you get the understandable part).
- corecoder 10y ago
  You surely can (and in certain circumstances must) consciously control some parts of your movements, but mostly you are aware of the high level goal and the "main" body part movements, but there's simply no way that you can control or even be aware of most of what your muscles do. In a situation as the ones you describe, you may be aware of relatively a lot simultaneous movements and perceptions you adjust for, but you're actually doing at least an order of magnitude more movements and adjustments, maybe two.
- gerbilly 10y ago
  At first when you are trying to learn a new sensorimotor skill, you have to use directed thought and consciously try and perform the task, typically by breaking it down into separate movements. But at a certain point in this process the skill becomes implicit and you start to 'just do it.' You can continue to improve the skill at this point, but it requires less conscious control. Interestingly, if you try and over-control your movements after having reached the second stage, your performance will usually get worse. [1] Psychologists call the first kind of learning explicit and the second kind implicit learning.
ksk 10y ago
Well, because that isn't what the article said at all. You're conflating controlling every muscle with a high level planning of avoiding obstacles. The latter is what the article talks about.

oinsurance3 10y ago

You can't run from troubles, you can to face them and solve them

crottypeter 10y ago
Some problems are solved by running :-) http://theoatmeal.com/comics/running_shoes http://theoatmeal.com/comics/running_shoes

js2 10y ago

Jurek never looks down, no matter how uneven the ground may be. Scott Jurek is one of the greatest trail/ultra-runners of all time, but I find this hard to believe. Of course you don't look directly down at your feet, but your gaze (at least, my gaze) when trail running is a few feet in front of you, much closer than when running on a smooth surface. He must have a visual image of what's in front of him. I run a lot of road miles (60+/week), with the occasional trail run, and I'm not a very good trail runner (went down three times in a 12 mile trail run a couple weeks ago). I find trail running much more mentally taxing than road running. I'm constantly scanning the ground for trip hazards, then looking up for branches and turns. I don't dare look at my watch. If my attention flags for a second, that's exactly when a root grabs my foot or my toe slams into a rock. A lot of this may be due to poor technique (I don't lift my legs as much as I should) or the rather rugged single-track where I run. And then there's running poorly marked trails where you have to navigate as you go, which is another issue altogether. In any case, interesting article. Single-track trail running is definitely a different beast than road, track, or cross-country.

LeifCarrotson 10y ago
Technique/form and experience definitely make a big difference in trail running. I usually do about 30 mpw on trails, and my gaze is 10-20 meters ahead, or yes, at my watch. Peripheral vision, I think, plays a large role. That's a reflex you have to train. And single-track running shouldn't be that much different than cross country running: The races aren't meant to be held on golf courses!
- js2 10y ago
  I didn't run in school so I haven't seen a lot of xc courses. I just occasionally run on a local xc course. It's all screened gravel, except for a single (long) grass hill. I've run a couple other xc courses and they've all been easy compared to the local single-track. I recently ran the UIUC xc course and it's an all grass loop around their arboretum with a single man-made "hill". The single-track in my area is very rugged, with lots of roots and exposed jagged rock, so I think that may be part of it too. But point taken.