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Hopefully they can use this to substantially improve their algorithm. (Voting without clicking, click to vote interval, click duration) Lots of reddit's problem

Hopefully they can use this to substantially improve their algorithm. (Voting without clicking, click to vote interval, click duration) Lots of reddit's problems are due to algorithmic flaws that they just didn't have the data to correct.

Someone1234 10y ago
Most of Reddit's problems are due to "double-dipping" what upvotes/downvotes mean. It is both used for like/dislike AND for marking things as spam/troll/off-topic/unconstructive. So you get these incredibly articulate replies which move the conversation forward but people "dislike" so wind up hidden with -5. Which is treated no differently to pure trolling and nonsense. I can name another website with that same issue... A like/dislike system is fine. But you need three buttons, like/dislike, and "bad." No amount of dislikes should ever make a comment hidden or punish the account, that's what "bad" or "flag" should be for. Heck even the karma total on Reddit encourages an echo chamber, effectively reinforcing the idea that downvotes are "bad" and you have less "worth" with less of them.
- ddebernardy 10y ago
  True, but if you look at Slashdot they have vote reasons, plus flags, with "Overrated" for use if you disagree, and - let's be honest - commentary over here is a few notches higher. It's admittedly a different group of users, but still.
  - finnh 10y ago
    I think the "other website" is HN.
    - 0x0 10y ago
      But HN has separate downvote and flag buttons for comments?
      - Someone1234 10y ago
        True, but HN like Reddit "double dips" on the meaning of the downvote arrow. If this comment got downvoted too much it would be marked [Dead] and disappear, and if that happened a lot my entire account would be shadowbanned.
        kbenson 10y ago
        Interestingly, I was under the impression that on HN down voting was supposed to be for when comments are (provably) erroneous, disrespectful, harmful or just plain don't really contribute constructively, but not when I disagree about something that isn't definitive. Looking at the guidelines, they actually say little about what down votes are supposed to be used for. I wonder how I got that impression? Was it learned through the culture here, or is it wishful thinking on my part, or a bit of both? In any case, I'm much more hesitant to down vote here just because I disagree with an opinion than on Reddit, and I think a lot of people do the same. To me, that higher standard for what's both considered a good comment and what's acceptable are what makes HN more useful for interesting discussion. There are probably 5-8 aspects of comments that could be voted on, but what we see with these singular rating systems is that the community forms around what is acceptable and what is not, and people generally fall in line with the community norms (both in submissions and in their own rating of others). Reddit is interesting in that I've noticed that this community norm is somewhat malleable based on the subreddit. /r/gifs and /r/programming have a distinctly different feel in the comments.
        SamReidHughes 10y ago
        > If this comment got downvoted too much it would be marked [Dead] and disappear, and if that happened a lot my entire account would be shadowbanned. I don't think any of this sentence is true. Getting [dead]ed was an experiment a long time ago which afaict ended quickly. And bans for non-spam-related reasons are obviously quite public.
        marak830 10y ago
        I believe I read something from dang a few weeks ago saying this. I'm on my phone though sorry and can't find it .
  - eric_h 10y ago
    Discussion on Slashdot used to be better. I would imagine there are quite a few of us here on HN who used to meaningfully contribute to the discussion over there. Further, I believe the GP was referring to HN, which has, like reddit, a one-dimensional voting system (for the most part).
- moultano 10y ago
  That isn't what I would list as one of its biggest problems. The biggest problem is that the strongest determiner of what makes it to the front-page is the rate of upvotes rather than the upvote to downvote ratio. This favors thin content because thin content can be upvoted more quickly. Content that can be upvoted based on the title alone does best of all.
- ECrownofFire 10y ago
  The problem with any negative feedback system is that people will always use it for stuff they personally don't like. It doesn't matter what you call it, people will abuse it.
  - clifanatic 10y ago
    ... or, if something is popular, but (any of) the moderators don't like it for whatever reason, they'll just delete it and it will be as if it never existed.
  - Someone1234 10y ago
    You could easily design around that. With like/dislike and flag, you could restrict them from replying or voting on replies which they flagged. Meaning they cannot argue with someone they just flagged, if they want to argue all they can do is "dislike" (which is how dislike SHOULD be used).
    - gedrap 10y ago
      In ideal case, yes, but there's nothing to prevent from just downvoting things that are against your personal opinion. Therefore, it would be abused/ignored. It's not that most of the people are rational and self-critical - many people think that their personal opinions are right and others are nonsense :) You can't design system on the assumption that people are rational.
    - nucleardog 10y ago
      This is towards what Slashdot does (did? haven't been there in a while). When you're given moderation points, you can only use them in a discussion you don't take part in. If you reply in a discussion that you'd moderated, your moderation is undone.
      - IanCal 10y ago
        Yeah, I've always quite liked that idea. Combined with marking things in different ways (funny vs informative, for example) I thought it worked pretty well. There will always be issues with anything like voting, but it's an interesting approach. HN also stops you from downvoting someone who replies to you, I think, which is another good idea.
- narrowrail 10y ago
  >But you need three buttons, like/dislike, and "bad." I always considered "bad"==flag, no?
- ihuman 10y ago
  > It is both used for like/dislike AND for marking things as spam/troll/off-topic/unconstructive. You aren't supposed to up/downvote something because you like or dislike it. According to Reddiquette: "If you think something contributes to conversation, upvote it. If you think it does not contribute to the subreddit it is posted in or is off-topic in a particular community, downvote it."
  - Someone1234 10y ago
    I'm aware. But Reddiquette doesn't counteract how the site is used, with how popular it has become most people there now don't even know what Reddiquette is let alone are voting that way.

Someone1234 10y ago

Most of Reddit's problems are due to "double-dipping" what upvotes/downvotes mean. It is both used for like/dislike AND for marking things as spam/troll/off-topic/unconstructive. So you get these incredibly articulate replies which move the conversation forward but people "dislike" so wind up hidden with -5. Which is treated no differently to pure trolling and nonsense. I can name another website with that same issue... A like/dislike system is fine. But you need three buttons, like/dislike, and "bad." No amount of dislikes should ever make a comment hidden or punish the account, that's what "bad" or "flag" should be for. Heck even the karma total on Reddit encourages an echo chamber, effectively reinforcing the idea that downvotes are "bad" and you have less "worth" with less of them.

ddebernardy 10y ago
True, but if you look at Slashdot they have vote reasons, plus flags, with "Overrated" for use if you disagree, and - let's be honest - commentary over here is a few notches higher. It's admittedly a different group of users, but still.
- finnh 10y ago
  I think the "other website" is HN.
  - 0x0 10y ago
    But HN has separate downvote and flag buttons for comments?
    - Someone1234 10y ago
      True, but HN like Reddit "double dips" on the meaning of the downvote arrow. If this comment got downvoted too much it would be marked [Dead] and disappear, and if that happened a lot my entire account would be shadowbanned.
      - kbenson 10y ago
        Interestingly, I was under the impression that on HN down voting was supposed to be for when comments are (provably) erroneous, disrespectful, harmful or just plain don't really contribute constructively, but not when I disagree about something that isn't definitive. Looking at the guidelines, they actually say little about what down votes are supposed to be used for. I wonder how I got that impression? Was it learned through the culture here, or is it wishful thinking on my part, or a bit of both? In any case, I'm much more hesitant to down vote here just because I disagree with an opinion than on Reddit, and I think a lot of people do the same. To me, that higher standard for what's both considered a good comment and what's acceptable are what makes HN more useful for interesting discussion. There are probably 5-8 aspects of comments that could be voted on, but what we see with these singular rating systems is that the community forms around what is acceptable and what is not, and people generally fall in line with the community norms (both in submissions and in their own rating of others). Reddit is interesting in that I've noticed that this community norm is somewhat malleable based on the subreddit. /r/gifs and /r/programming have a distinctly different feel in the comments.
      - SamReidHughes 10y ago
        > If this comment got downvoted too much it would be marked [Dead] and disappear, and if that happened a lot my entire account would be shadowbanned. I don't think any of this sentence is true. Getting [dead]ed was an experiment a long time ago which afaict ended quickly. And bans for non-spam-related reasons are obviously quite public.
        marak830 10y ago
        I believe I read something from dang a few weeks ago saying this. I'm on my phone though sorry and can't find it .
- eric_h 10y ago
  Discussion on Slashdot used to be better. I would imagine there are quite a few of us here on HN who used to meaningfully contribute to the discussion over there. Further, I believe the GP was referring to HN, which has, like reddit, a one-dimensional voting system (for the most part).
moultano 10y ago
That isn't what I would list as one of its biggest problems. The biggest problem is that the strongest determiner of what makes it to the front-page is the rate of upvotes rather than the upvote to downvote ratio. This favors thin content because thin content can be upvoted more quickly. Content that can be upvoted based on the title alone does best of all.
ECrownofFire 10y ago
The problem with any negative feedback system is that people will always use it for stuff they personally don't like. It doesn't matter what you call it, people will abuse it.
- clifanatic 10y ago
  ... or, if something is popular, but (any of) the moderators don't like it for whatever reason, they'll just delete it and it will be as if it never existed.
- Someone1234 10y ago
  You could easily design around that. With like/dislike and flag, you could restrict them from replying or voting on replies which they flagged. Meaning they cannot argue with someone they just flagged, if they want to argue all they can do is "dislike" (which is how dislike SHOULD be used).
  - gedrap 10y ago
    In ideal case, yes, but there's nothing to prevent from just downvoting things that are against your personal opinion. Therefore, it would be abused/ignored. It's not that most of the people are rational and self-critical - many people think that their personal opinions are right and others are nonsense :) You can't design system on the assumption that people are rational.
  - nucleardog 10y ago
    This is towards what Slashdot does (did? haven't been there in a while). When you're given moderation points, you can only use them in a discussion you don't take part in. If you reply in a discussion that you'd moderated, your moderation is undone.
    - IanCal 10y ago
      Yeah, I've always quite liked that idea. Combined with marking things in different ways (funny vs informative, for example) I thought it worked pretty well. There will always be issues with anything like voting, but it's an interesting approach. HN also stops you from downvoting someone who replies to you, I think, which is another good idea.
narrowrail 10y ago
>But you need three buttons, like/dislike, and "bad." I always considered "bad"==flag, no?
ihuman 10y ago
> It is both used for like/dislike AND for marking things as spam/troll/off-topic/unconstructive. You aren't supposed to up/downvote something because you like or dislike it. According to Reddiquette: "If you think something contributes to conversation, upvote it. If you think it does not contribute to the subreddit it is posted in or is off-topic in a particular community, downvote it."
- Someone1234 10y ago
  I'm aware. But Reddiquette doesn't counteract how the site is used, with how popular it has become most people there now don't even know what Reddiquette is let alone are voting that way.