2 ms·

For additional selfish reasons: there's only one atmosphere. ruining it anywhere ruins it everywhere i'm sort of surprised that would need to be pointed out, t

For additional selfish reasons: there's only one atmosphere. ruining it anywhere ruins it everywhere i'm sort of surprised that would need to be pointed out, though

mikeash 10y ago
Bad air quality in China has very little effect on air quality here, so that's not really true. It is true for CO2, but it's not true for many other pollutants.
ptaipale 10y ago
This was specifically about other pollutants than CO2. Those have local impact, so bad air in China doesn't show up in America or Europe.
- venomsnake 10y ago
  It does. Diluted but it does. I think that 20% of the LA smog could be traced to be of Chinese origin. Sources - probably a guardian article an year ago.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    That is clearly not feasible. Just think about it: Right now, air quality index in central San Francisco is 15 [0]. That's "good". In central Los Angeles, it is 84, a "moderate" day [1]. Those figures are on linear scale [2]. The cities are about on an equal distance from China, and the figure for San Francisco is 18 % of that in LA. If 20 % of Los Angeles pollution would be from China, then 110 % of San Francisco air pollution would be from China. Hey, it could only be 100 %. You took a bait. Advice: don't believe everything in Guardian. [0] https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zipcode=90037 https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zi... [1] https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&cityid=317 https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&ci... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_quality_index#Computing_the_AQI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_quality_index#Computing_th...
    - venomsnake 10y ago
      It was nytimes. Sorry. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/world/asia/china-also-exports-pollution-to-western-us-study-finds.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/world/asia/china-also-expo... https://pnas.altmetric.com/details/2061087#score https://pnas.altmetric.com/details/2061087#score Link to the paper. Abstract: tmospheric modeling shows that transport of the export-related Chinese pollution contributed 3-10% of annual mean surface sulfate concentrations and 0.5-1.5% of ozone over the western United States in 2006. This Chinese pollution also resulted in one extra day or more of noncompliance with the US ozone standard in 2006 over the Los Angeles area and many regions in the eastern United States. On a daily basis, the export-related Chinese pollution contributed, at a maximum, 12-24% of sulfate concentrations over the western United States. As the United States outsourced manufacturing to China, sulfate pollution in 2006 increased in the western United States but decreased in the eastern United States, reflecting the competing effect between enhanced transport of Chinese pollution and reduced US emissions. Our findings are relevant to international efforts to reduce transboundary air pollution.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        "3-10 % of annual mean surface concentration over Western USA" of a single pollutant is quite a different thing from "20 % of LA smog". By several orders of magnitude. Yes, some pollutants are measurable over Western USA, at least in areas where there are no local pollutant sources.

For additional selfish reasons: there's only one atmosphere. ruining it anywhere ruins it everywhere i'm sort of surprised that would need to be pointed out, though

mikeash 10y ago

Bad air quality in China has very little effect on air quality here, so that's not really true. It is true for CO2, but it's not true for many other pollutants.

ptaipale 10y ago

This was specifically about other pollutants than CO2. Those have local impact, so bad air in China doesn't show up in America or Europe.

venomsnake 10y ago
It does. Diluted but it does. I think that 20% of the LA smog could be traced to be of Chinese origin. Sources - probably a guardian article an year ago.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  That is clearly not feasible. Just think about it: Right now, air quality index in central San Francisco is 15 [0]. That's "good". In central Los Angeles, it is 84, a "moderate" day [1]. Those figures are on linear scale [2]. The cities are about on an equal distance from China, and the figure for San Francisco is 18 % of that in LA. If 20 % of Los Angeles pollution would be from China, then 110 % of San Francisco air pollution would be from China. Hey, it could only be 100 %. You took a bait. Advice: don't believe everything in Guardian. [0] https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zipcode=90037 https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&zi... [1] https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&cityid=317 https://www.airnow.gov/index.cfm?action=airnow.local_city&ci... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_quality_index#Computing_the_AQI https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_quality_index#Computing_th...
  - venomsnake 10y ago
    It was nytimes. Sorry. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/world/asia/china-also-exports-pollution-to-western-us-study-finds.html?_r=0 http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/21/world/asia/china-also-expo... https://pnas.altmetric.com/details/2061087#score https://pnas.altmetric.com/details/2061087#score Link to the paper. Abstract: tmospheric modeling shows that transport of the export-related Chinese pollution contributed 3-10% of annual mean surface sulfate concentrations and 0.5-1.5% of ozone over the western United States in 2006. This Chinese pollution also resulted in one extra day or more of noncompliance with the US ozone standard in 2006 over the Los Angeles area and many regions in the eastern United States. On a daily basis, the export-related Chinese pollution contributed, at a maximum, 12-24% of sulfate concentrations over the western United States. As the United States outsourced manufacturing to China, sulfate pollution in 2006 increased in the western United States but decreased in the eastern United States, reflecting the competing effect between enhanced transport of Chinese pollution and reduced US emissions. Our findings are relevant to international efforts to reduce transboundary air pollution.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      "3-10 % of annual mean surface concentration over Western USA" of a single pollutant is quite a different thing from "20 % of LA smog". By several orders of magnitude. Yes, some pollutants are measurable over Western USA, at least in areas where there are no local pollutant sources.