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Autopsy reveals Debian founder committed suicide

154 points by peterkshultz 10y ago

moondev 10y ago
Tragic end to such an influential person. A few months back I was researching debian and found out that the name comes from a combination of Ian and Deb, his then girlfriend. I obviously never knew him personally but his legacy will live on.
- cmdrfred 10y ago
  Especially with stuff like Raspbian, so many future programmers will be exposed to his work.
DanBC 10y ago
If you're worried that someone you know might be suicidal there's a free app (Apple and Google Play) that should be helpful. It's for the UK, but most of the advice is transferable to other countries. They're in the process of getting more academic review. http://www.prevent-suicide.org.uk/stay_alive_suicide_prevention_mobile_phone_application.html http://www.prevent-suicide.org.uk/stay_alive_suicide_prevent...
ChristianBundy 10y ago
I'm surprised the article didn't mention it, but check out the last page of the autopsy. They found chlordiazepoxide, diazepam, temazepam, and oxazepam in his bloodstream, which could have had some terrible interactions with alcohol. This sounds more to me like a drug overdose that caused a psychological episode than just the alcohol-fueled suicide they make it out to be. Very strange.
- protomyth 10y ago
  Not so strange, sadly. The combination of drugs and alcohol is an especially bad thing for people experiencing depression. HHS (which includes the CDC) has a lot of papers and studies on this sort of thing.
  - jwdunne 10y ago
    High level of benzodiazepines is enough to kill off your inhibitions and short term memory. Mixed with alcohol, if you feel that way, there is nothing stopping you from taking your life. At 16, during an episode of depression and psychosis, I was trusted with a whole box of Lorazepam. Being in the state I was, I took the whole box. I have only fleeting images and I woke up the next day on a PICU. The not remembering is especially hard since I have quite a vivid memory - I seem to have lost those memories forever now, though I'm not sure if I want to remember.
    - malkia 10y ago
      I was prescribed some medication time ago, and it felt me the most depressed person, but I was aware that this must be the cause of it, and asked my doctor to stop it. The other medication was not that effective, as this one, but I no longer had the moods. I was feeling as if nothing really matter, but this time literally, not in some "grand scheme of things" way. I had to push myself somehow to do things. It could've been something else, but it coincided and stopped days after I started taking that medication.
      - blt 10y ago
        You are lucky it was only a medicine side effect. Many depressed people feel that way their entire lives.
    - aphextron 10y ago
      Benzos are nothing but bad news. I had a very similar experience in my teens. Woke up 24 hours later in the emergency room with a wrecked car and no memory of anything.
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  "incoherent", "claiming to have been beaten up by police" http://archive.is/vBS6N http://archive.is/vBS6N I wouldn't call those incoherent - I'd call them distressed and angry at having been beaten up by the police. They say he hit his head on the cage separator - which is a classic cop write-up for after they've roughed you up.
  - cortesoft 10y ago
    It is also something that mentally distressed people on lots of drugs do. I think all of the evidence points to the official story being true.
    - amenod 10y ago
      To be (more) precise: no evidence points to the official story not being true. It could easily have been the cops' fault.
      - blastrat 10y ago
        To be (more) nuanced: the truth is often somewhere in the middle, where a drug/alcohol infused psych patient acts like a complete jackass, and frustrated cops get sick of dealing with him and let him have a few knocks (which they should not do) and then lie about it (which they should not do) but it doesn't really change the underlying cause. Sometimes it does change the underlying cause, sometimes they kill somebody who would not otherwise have died, but in this case we are in all likelihood talking about a drug/alcohol infused psych patient who was behaving extremely erratically and there is enough evidence for him to have been the cause of his own demise, and no particular evidence that the cops were. We can accept the outcome of this while in our minds leaving room for the idea that psych patients can be very difficult to deal with and they frequently and sadly do provoke abuse from the people we leave to look after them. Think of it like resolving a dispute between two children, who socked who first etc. Sadly, that's what kids do and they lie about it, their statements are unreliable. Watching Judge Judy (!) gives good perspective on this, same sadly is true for adults, frequently both sides are lying, but outcomes that are just(-icey) enough can be determined
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  From the autopsy, he did not die of an overdose, but rather of hanging - appears he looped the vacuum flex around the top bannister, then slid down the stairs until it cut off blood flow - "Cause of Death: Hanging". That said, you're quite right that the cocktail he had in his system disinhibited him to the point of no return.
- niccaluim 10y ago
  No one takes four different benzos at once unless they've got a specific outcome in mind.
  - droopyEyelids 10y ago
    Thats simply false. Benzodiazepines are addictive, build a quick tolerance, and they destroy judgement. You can no more predict a heavy recreational benzo users's night than you can predict what someone will do blacked out on ambien or alcohol.
    - djsumdog 10y ago
      Can attest to this. I had a very good friend who was taking an insane amount of various pills (hydros, valium and some others) and had a breakdown. She wasn't suicidal, but the doctors told her she was lucky to be alive with as much as she was taking. It totally impairs judgment, and people who are addicted can quickly escalate without realizing it. This very well could have been an accidental suicide.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - niccaluim 10y ago
      I've been addicted to benzos (since recovered) and know many others who have been too, so I'm intimately aware of their addictive nature and rapid tolerance. Saying they "destroy" judgment is a bit hyperbolic though. In any event we're all speculating. But I seriously doubt anything about this was accidental, even if the benzos were recreational. The drugs didn't kill him. The hanging did.
    - MollyR 10y ago
      I had issues with stress and problems sleeping from university. I was prescribed benzo's, While they helped, before I knew it, I got addicted with a tolerance quickly. Breaking that addiction was one the worst experiences of my life. It would have been impossible without the support of my family.
- argonaut 10y ago
  It seems everyone is a forensic medical professional now. Did anyone actually read the report? From the medical examiner: "I received and reviewed the Toxicology Report. The findings do not change my opinion regarding the cause and manner of death."
  - DanBC 10y ago
    Parent post is not saying that benzos caused the death, but that the benzo + alcohol mix made worse the mental state that caused the death.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
mysterypie 10y ago
The suicide is tragic. However, no one seems to have investigated the police beatings he alleges he received the day before he died: "They beat the shit out of me twice," he says. Just look at the autopsy report under "BLUNT FORCE INJURIES" for all the bruises: https://regmedia.co.uk/2016/07/07/ian_murdock.pdf#page=10 https://regmedia.co.uk/2016/07/07/ian_murdock.pdf#page=10 The autopsy reports alcohol and sedative drugs, and friends and family report that he was breaking up with his girlfriend, facing eviction, and other distressing things. Does that make it likely that he'd make false accusations against the police? I don't think so.
- mordocai 10y ago
  I don't know enough about it to comment on it myself, but I saw comments elsewhere that apparently bruises appearing post mortem are quite common and those people appeared to think that was the likely cause of the bruises indicated in the autopsy. Found where I read those comments and it has also been updated: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4rlar5/official_report_on_ian_murdocks_death_suicide/d52600n https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4rlar5/official_repo...
  - madaxe_again 10y ago
    You don't get abrasions post-mortem, however, and if it were post-mortem bruising, you'd expect it in parts of his body that were lower than others. Having bruises and abrasions on his front, back, sides and face is not a natural thing that happens after death. It's a thing that happens when you're roughed up - if you read the autopsy report there are a variety of injuries that you'd have to try pretty hard to inflict on yourself, but are absolutely consistent with being beaten and thrown to the ground, and then having someone dead-drop knee-first into your back. Honestly, I understand him killing himself. In the same scenario, potentially facing 15-25 years in prison for a felony (being white would likely help keep him out of jail, but being a geek with aspergers would not), I would likely do the same, as in the US there is no life after prison. This is interesting, actually - unsurprisingly, the US is the most punitive place on earth if you assault a cop, although I can't see how you could assault a cop in the US, given that they're armed to the teeth and usually in full armour, and usually sat in an armoured and armed vehicle. http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/city/city_index/215849-city-index-the-penalties-for-assaulting-a-cop http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/city/city_index/215849-ci...
digi_owl 10y ago
Anything other than "yes masta, right away masta" can be considered "resisting arrest", sadly.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  Based on his state, it seems plausible that he did assault officers, and that they did have a right to use force against him to end that assault and take him into custody. Your offensive inaccurate slavery imagery notwithstanding.
  - madaxe_again 10y ago
    It seems equally plausible, also based on his state, and on the oh-so-glorious track record of US police, that police officers did assault him, and used excessive force on a man who appears to have needed help rather than an impressive array of injuries and $25k bail. Your offensive presumption of innocence of law enforcement notwithstanding.
    - CydeWeys 10y ago
      He was in the process of attempted breaking and entering on someone's house. Everyone is glossing right over that fact. This is not some innocent man who was randomly beat up by the police. He was committing a violent crime and it sounds like reasonable force was used to stop it and protect the other citizens who were endangered. Read the other responses I've left for more. I'm actually quite critical of the police in most situations, but this is one in which I side more with the people whose house was getting broken into than the one perpetrating that crime.
      - madaxe_again 10y ago
        No, he wasn't. He was banging on their front door, admittedly hard, but that doesn't constitute breaking and entering anywhere, as he neither broke nor entered, nor was attempting to do so. If you want to break and enter, you use a window, not the frigging front door. Also, if it were breaking and entering, they would have charged him with that. Instead, it's "Suspicion of intoxication", "Resisting Arrest" and "Assaulting a police officer", the latter two being the default charges for when you don't actually have anything worthwhile to charge someone with. 10 cops for Suspicion of Intoxication? Shit, we'll get it in the neck from the super for this one - better make it look good. Please do show me where he was charged with breaking and entering, if I, and the coroner, have missed something. From the neighbour's account in the autopsy report, it sounds more like they were concerned for him than scared. Hell, I've had drunken idiots pounding on my front door before, and I wouldn't consider beating them to a pulp for it, nor would I approve of, if I had called the police, them beating the poor sod to a pulp. Also, if beating a door is considered a violent crime that warrants beating a human being in retaliation and placing a $25k price on their head, then that's a pretty damn sad place we've ended up.
mschuster91 10y ago
> Your offensive inaccurate slavery imagery notwithstanding. Offensive, but, given two PoC shot dead in 48 hours by police, certainly not unfounded. Racism is deeply embedded in (US) police, and it deserves to be called out. > it seems plausible that he did assault officers, and that they did have a right to use force against him to end that assault Funny enough, British cops don't (need to) carry guns. German cops carry guns, but it's rare that they have to be drawn, and even rarer that a shot is fired. Dito for Switzerland. It's a major culture issue when US cops/people apparently tend to think of PoC as practice targets for shooting, when other countries, even with permissive gun laws (such as Switzerland), do not have such widespread issues with racism, police brutality and guns..
- amenod 10y ago
  Not that I don't agree with you, but there is this little thing of US citizens carrying guns which is far from customary in Europe... So I guess the US cops do operate in different environment. That said, I don't condone police violence and think that in this day and age ALL work of the police should be on camera. Camera doesn't work? Get out of uniform right away, you are no longer a cop.
  - geggam 10y ago
    Citizens dont carry guns in california without having a friend who is in law enforcement to help them get a concealed carry permit
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  > Offensive, but, given two PoC shot dead in 48 hours by police, certainly not unfounded. > Racism is deeply embedded in (US) police, and it deserves to be called out. Ian Murdock is white. This isn't a "PoC" issue, and the colloquial slavery expressions are out of place and offensive. Yes, racism is an issue with US police, but it is unrelated to this occurrence and to this conversation. And secondly, Ian was violently attempting to break into a neighbor's apartment by bashing down the front door. What exactly do you think should happen in such an instance? I'll tell you what I'd do -- I'd want the police to come as quickly as possible and deal with it, using whatever force is necessary to stop the in-progress home invasion, because if an intruder breaks through my door I have no choice but to shoot them until they're stopped, and I don't want that on my conscience. I don't have the skills or training to determine between mentally deranged people and killers, nor could I effectively or safely use non-lethal methods of self-defense. I understand the points you're trying to make, but none of them are applicable to this specific situation, in which the police actions were entirely warranted. Put yourself in the shoes of the person whose home was being broken into, think about how scared that would make you especially if the attacker was a physically stronger person than you are. We need the police to stop violent crimes in progress, and they have to use violence in response. And hell, given that they didn't seriously injure him, it sounds like they used the right proportional amount of force as was necessary. Unlike possibly the two high profile fatal shootings in the news the past two days. You've got to pick your battles. I don't think the Ian Murdock case is a good one.
gmarx 10y ago
Does anyone know if there is a relationship between Aspergers/Autism spectrum and suicide? I know one person who I think is on the spectrum, doesn't know it, and suffers serious depression at least in part due to her lack of social success.
- DanBC 10y ago
  Yes, there's a correlation between ASD and both attempted suicide and completed suicide. That might be because of the increased risk of depression in ASD, or the increased risk of physical health problems, or it might be something about the ASD itself that makes it harder for people to get help. The numbers are surprisingly hard to find, and other diagnoses are probably higher in the list. Here's good quality information with a focus on those people who were "known to services": http://www.bbmh.manchester.ac.uk/cmhs/research/centreforsuicideprevention/nci/reports/NCISHReport2015bookmarked2.pdf http://www.bbmh.manchester.ac.uk/cmhs/research/centreforsuic... Here's recent data for young people. http://www.bbmh.manchester.ac.uk/cmhs/research/centreforsuicideprevention/nci/reports/cyp_report.pdf http://www.bbmh.manchester.ac.uk/cmhs/research/centreforsuic... Here's some great information about different areas of the UK (this one is for suicide, but there's a bunch of other stuff there) http://fingertips.phe.org.uk/profile-group/mental-health/profile/suicide http://fingertips.phe.org.uk/profile-group/mental-health/pro... Here's the Office for National Statistics data sets: http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2014registrations http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdea... (Be careful with these. Sometimes people counting "death by suicide" use a different definition for suicide.)
  - gmarx 10y ago
    Thanks!
geggam 10y ago
you are under the impression the police discriminate... they do ... if you are blue you get away with everything... everyone else they hate ( the sheep )
- dpark 10y ago
  This is moronic. Even if you believe that all police are bad actors, it doesn't make any sense that they would be randomly attacking Murdock as he described. Is it impossible? No. Is it far, far less likely than Murdock having a psychotic break and lapsing into paranoia and confusion? Yes.
  - geggam 10y ago
    enjoy that illusion... one day you will meet the police and think back .. hopefully you remember and feel at least a bit ashamed
    - dpark 10y ago
      Attitudes like yours are unhelpful. If all police are fundamentally evil, then there can be no conversation about how to fix the problems with police abuses. If all police are not fundamentally evil, then people like you poison the well and make it more difficult to discuss and maybe fix some of the problems. If all police are fundamentally evil, then people like you are wasting everyone's time anyway. Either way, you're not helpful.
      - geggam 10y ago
        because posting on HN is a social fix ? and im moronic ?
        dpark 10y ago
        Attitudes like yours are poisonous in general, not just on HN. And yes, your paranoid belief that all police are evildoers just waiting around every corner to assault strangers is moronic. Your paranoia is stopping you from engaging in rational thought about the police.
downandout 10y ago
A neighbor told the city's investigators that Murdock had just split up with his girlfriend and was facing eviction How is someone so well known in the software industry so hard up for money that they are facing eviction? Far lesser engineers than he have never had problems earning enough money to get by. The whole thing is very sad, and clearly money wasn't his only problem, but it's one issue that someone with his resume shouldn't have been facing.
- Tomte 10y ago
  There are other reasons to get evicted besides not paying rent. We don't know why the landlord wanted him out.
  - mywittyname 10y ago
    Pissing off the neighbors could have something to do with it. I mean, what are the chances this is the first time he's acted crazy?
lllorddino 10y ago
Autopsy?? The article clearly states the police found him with a cable around his neck.

154 points by peterkshultz 10y ago

Tragic end to such an influential person. A few months back I was researching debian and found out that the name comes from a combination of Ian and Deb, his then girlfriend. I obviously never knew him personally but his legacy will live on.

cmdrfred 10y ago
Especially with stuff like Raspbian, so many future programmers will be exposed to his work.

DanBC 10y ago

If you're worried that someone you know might be suicidal there's a free app (Apple and Google Play) that should be helpful. It's for the UK, but most of the advice is transferable to other countries. They're in the process of getting more academic review. http://www.prevent-suicide.org.uk/stay_alive_suicide_prevention_mobile_phone_application.html http://www.prevent-suicide.org.uk/stay_alive_suicide_prevent...

ChristianBundy 10y ago

I'm surprised the article didn't mention it, but check out the last page of the autopsy. They found chlordiazepoxide, diazepam, temazepam, and oxazepam in his bloodstream, which could have had some terrible interactions with alcohol. This sounds more to me like a drug overdose that caused a psychological episode than just the alcohol-fueled suicide they make it out to be. Very strange.

protomyth 10y ago
Not so strange, sadly. The combination of drugs and alcohol is an especially bad thing for people experiencing depression. HHS (which includes the CDC) has a lot of papers and studies on this sort of thing.
- jwdunne 10y ago
  High level of benzodiazepines is enough to kill off your inhibitions and short term memory. Mixed with alcohol, if you feel that way, there is nothing stopping you from taking your life. At 16, during an episode of depression and psychosis, I was trusted with a whole box of Lorazepam. Being in the state I was, I took the whole box. I have only fleeting images and I woke up the next day on a PICU. The not remembering is especially hard since I have quite a vivid memory - I seem to have lost those memories forever now, though I'm not sure if I want to remember.
  - malkia 10y ago
    I was prescribed some medication time ago, and it felt me the most depressed person, but I was aware that this must be the cause of it, and asked my doctor to stop it. The other medication was not that effective, as this one, but I no longer had the moods. I was feeling as if nothing really matter, but this time literally, not in some "grand scheme of things" way. I had to push myself somehow to do things. It could've been something else, but it coincided and stopped days after I started taking that medication.
    - blt 10y ago
      You are lucky it was only a medicine side effect. Many depressed people feel that way their entire lives.
  - aphextron 10y ago
    Benzos are nothing but bad news. I had a very similar experience in my teens. Woke up 24 hours later in the emergency room with a wrecked car and no memory of anything.
madaxe_again 10y ago
"incoherent", "claiming to have been beaten up by police" http://archive.is/vBS6N http://archive.is/vBS6N I wouldn't call those incoherent - I'd call them distressed and angry at having been beaten up by the police. They say he hit his head on the cage separator - which is a classic cop write-up for after they've roughed you up.
- cortesoft 10y ago
  It is also something that mentally distressed people on lots of drugs do. I think all of the evidence points to the official story being true.
  - amenod 10y ago
    To be (more) precise: no evidence points to the official story not being true. It could easily have been the cops' fault.
    - blastrat 10y ago
      To be (more) nuanced: the truth is often somewhere in the middle, where a drug/alcohol infused psych patient acts like a complete jackass, and frustrated cops get sick of dealing with him and let him have a few knocks (which they should not do) and then lie about it (which they should not do) but it doesn't really change the underlying cause. Sometimes it does change the underlying cause, sometimes they kill somebody who would not otherwise have died, but in this case we are in all likelihood talking about a drug/alcohol infused psych patient who was behaving extremely erratically and there is enough evidence for him to have been the cause of his own demise, and no particular evidence that the cops were. We can accept the outcome of this while in our minds leaving room for the idea that psych patients can be very difficult to deal with and they frequently and sadly do provoke abuse from the people we leave to look after them. Think of it like resolving a dispute between two children, who socked who first etc. Sadly, that's what kids do and they lie about it, their statements are unreliable. Watching Judge Judy (!) gives good perspective on this, same sadly is true for adults, frequently both sides are lying, but outcomes that are just(-icey) enough can be determined
madaxe_again 10y ago
From the autopsy, he did not die of an overdose, but rather of hanging - appears he looped the vacuum flex around the top bannister, then slid down the stairs until it cut off blood flow - "Cause of Death: Hanging". That said, you're quite right that the cocktail he had in his system disinhibited him to the point of no return.
niccaluim 10y ago
No one takes four different benzos at once unless they've got a specific outcome in mind.
- droopyEyelids 10y ago
  Thats simply false. Benzodiazepines are addictive, build a quick tolerance, and they destroy judgement. You can no more predict a heavy recreational benzo users's night than you can predict what someone will do blacked out on ambien or alcohol.
  - djsumdog 10y ago
    Can attest to this. I had a very good friend who was taking an insane amount of various pills (hydros, valium and some others) and had a breakdown. She wasn't suicidal, but the doctors told her she was lucky to be alive with as much as she was taking. It totally impairs judgment, and people who are addicted can quickly escalate without realizing it. This very well could have been an accidental suicide.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - niccaluim 10y ago
    I've been addicted to benzos (since recovered) and know many others who have been too, so I'm intimately aware of their addictive nature and rapid tolerance. Saying they "destroy" judgment is a bit hyperbolic though. In any event we're all speculating. But I seriously doubt anything about this was accidental, even if the benzos were recreational. The drugs didn't kill him. The hanging did.
  - MollyR 10y ago
    I had issues with stress and problems sleeping from university. I was prescribed benzo's, While they helped, before I knew it, I got addicted with a tolerance quickly. Breaking that addiction was one the worst experiences of my life. It would have been impossible without the support of my family.
argonaut 10y ago
It seems everyone is a forensic medical professional now. Did anyone actually read the report? From the medical examiner: "I received and reviewed the Toxicology Report. The findings do not change my opinion regarding the cause and manner of death."
- DanBC 10y ago
  Parent post is not saying that benzos caused the death, but that the benzo + alcohol mix made worse the mental state that caused the death.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]

mysterypie 10y ago

The suicide is tragic. However, no one seems to have investigated the police beatings he alleges he received the day before he died: "They beat the shit out of me twice," he says. Just look at the autopsy report under "BLUNT FORCE INJURIES" for all the bruises: https://regmedia.co.uk/2016/07/07/ian_murdock.pdf#page=10 https://regmedia.co.uk/2016/07/07/ian_murdock.pdf#page=10 The autopsy reports alcohol and sedative drugs, and friends and family report that he was breaking up with his girlfriend, facing eviction, and other distressing things. Does that make it likely that he'd make false accusations against the police? I don't think so.

mordocai 10y ago
I don't know enough about it to comment on it myself, but I saw comments elsewhere that apparently bruises appearing post mortem are quite common and those people appeared to think that was the likely cause of the bruises indicated in the autopsy. Found where I read those comments and it has also been updated: https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4rlar5/official_report_on_ian_murdocks_death_suicide/d52600n https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/4rlar5/official_repo...
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  You don't get abrasions post-mortem, however, and if it were post-mortem bruising, you'd expect it in parts of his body that were lower than others. Having bruises and abrasions on his front, back, sides and face is not a natural thing that happens after death. It's a thing that happens when you're roughed up - if you read the autopsy report there are a variety of injuries that you'd have to try pretty hard to inflict on yourself, but are absolutely consistent with being beaten and thrown to the ground, and then having someone dead-drop knee-first into your back. Honestly, I understand him killing himself. In the same scenario, potentially facing 15-25 years in prison for a felony (being white would likely help keep him out of jail, but being a geek with aspergers would not), I would likely do the same, as in the US there is no life after prison. This is interesting, actually - unsurprisingly, the US is the most punitive place on earth if you assault a cop, although I can't see how you could assault a cop in the US, given that they're armed to the teeth and usually in full armour, and usually sat in an armoured and armed vehicle. http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/city/city_index/215849-city-index-the-penalties-for-assaulting-a-cop http://www.hopesandfears.com/hopes/city/city_index/215849-ci...

digi_owl 10y ago

Anything other than "yes masta, right away masta" can be considered "resisting arrest", sadly.

CydeWeys 10y ago
Based on his state, it seems plausible that he did assault officers, and that they did have a right to use force against him to end that assault and take him into custody. Your offensive inaccurate slavery imagery notwithstanding.
- madaxe_again 10y ago
  It seems equally plausible, also based on his state, and on the oh-so-glorious track record of US police, that police officers did assault him, and used excessive force on a man who appears to have needed help rather than an impressive array of injuries and $25k bail. Your offensive presumption of innocence of law enforcement notwithstanding.
  - CydeWeys 10y ago
    He was in the process of attempted breaking and entering on someone's house. Everyone is glossing right over that fact. This is not some innocent man who was randomly beat up by the police. He was committing a violent crime and it sounds like reasonable force was used to stop it and protect the other citizens who were endangered. Read the other responses I've left for more. I'm actually quite critical of the police in most situations, but this is one in which I side more with the people whose house was getting broken into than the one perpetrating that crime.
    - madaxe_again 10y ago
      No, he wasn't. He was banging on their front door, admittedly hard, but that doesn't constitute breaking and entering anywhere, as he neither broke nor entered, nor was attempting to do so. If you want to break and enter, you use a window, not the frigging front door. Also, if it were breaking and entering, they would have charged him with that. Instead, it's "Suspicion of intoxication", "Resisting Arrest" and "Assaulting a police officer", the latter two being the default charges for when you don't actually have anything worthwhile to charge someone with. 10 cops for Suspicion of Intoxication? Shit, we'll get it in the neck from the super for this one - better make it look good. Please do show me where he was charged with breaking and entering, if I, and the coroner, have missed something. From the neighbour's account in the autopsy report, it sounds more like they were concerned for him than scared. Hell, I've had drunken idiots pounding on my front door before, and I wouldn't consider beating them to a pulp for it, nor would I approve of, if I had called the police, them beating the poor sod to a pulp. Also, if beating a door is considered a violent crime that warrants beating a human being in retaliation and placing a $25k price on their head, then that's a pretty damn sad place we've ended up.

mschuster91 10y ago

> Your offensive inaccurate slavery imagery notwithstanding. Offensive, but, given two PoC shot dead in 48 hours by police, certainly not unfounded. Racism is deeply embedded in (US) police, and it deserves to be called out. > it seems plausible that he did assault officers, and that they did have a right to use force against him to end that assault Funny enough, British cops don't (need to) carry guns. German cops carry guns, but it's rare that they have to be drawn, and even rarer that a shot is fired. Dito for Switzerland. It's a major culture issue when US cops/people apparently tend to think of PoC as practice targets for shooting, when other countries, even with permissive gun laws (such as Switzerland), do not have such widespread issues with racism, police brutality and guns..

amenod 10y ago
Not that I don't agree with you, but there is this little thing of US citizens carrying guns which is far from customary in Europe... So I guess the US cops do operate in different environment. That said, I don't condone police violence and think that in this day and age ALL work of the police should be on camera. Camera doesn't work? Get out of uniform right away, you are no longer a cop.
- geggam 10y ago
  Citizens dont carry guns in california without having a friend who is in law enforcement to help them get a concealed carry permit
CydeWeys 10y ago
> Offensive, but, given two PoC shot dead in 48 hours by police, certainly not unfounded. > Racism is deeply embedded in (US) police, and it deserves to be called out. Ian Murdock is white. This isn't a "PoC" issue, and the colloquial slavery expressions are out of place and offensive. Yes, racism is an issue with US police, but it is unrelated to this occurrence and to this conversation. And secondly, Ian was violently attempting to break into a neighbor's apartment by bashing down the front door. What exactly do you think should happen in such an instance? I'll tell you what I'd do -- I'd want the police to come as quickly as possible and deal with it, using whatever force is necessary to stop the in-progress home invasion, because if an intruder breaks through my door I have no choice but to shoot them until they're stopped, and I don't want that on my conscience. I don't have the skills or training to determine between mentally deranged people and killers, nor could I effectively or safely use non-lethal methods of self-defense. I understand the points you're trying to make, but none of them are applicable to this specific situation, in which the police actions were entirely warranted. Put yourself in the shoes of the person whose home was being broken into, think about how scared that would make you especially if the attacker was a physically stronger person than you are. We need the police to stop violent crimes in progress, and they have to use violence in response. And hell, given that they didn't seriously injure him, it sounds like they used the right proportional amount of force as was necessary. Unlike possibly the two high profile fatal shootings in the news the past two days. You've got to pick your battles. I don't think the Ian Murdock case is a good one.

gmarx 10y ago

Does anyone know if there is a relationship between Aspergers/Autism spectrum and suicide? I know one person who I think is on the spectrum, doesn't know it, and suffers serious depression at least in part due to her lack of social success.

DanBC 10y ago
Yes, there's a correlation between ASD and both attempted suicide and completed suicide. That might be because of the increased risk of depression in ASD, or the increased risk of physical health problems, or it might be something about the ASD itself that makes it harder for people to get help. The numbers are surprisingly hard to find, and other diagnoses are probably higher in the list. Here's good quality information with a focus on those people who were "known to services": http://www.bbmh.manchester.ac.uk/cmhs/research/centreforsuicideprevention/nci/reports/NCISHReport2015bookmarked2.pdf http://www.bbmh.manchester.ac.uk/cmhs/research/centreforsuic... Here's recent data for young people. http://www.bbmh.manchester.ac.uk/cmhs/research/centreforsuicideprevention/nci/reports/cyp_report.pdf http://www.bbmh.manchester.ac.uk/cmhs/research/centreforsuic... Here's some great information about different areas of the UK (this one is for suicide, but there's a bunch of other stuff there) http://fingertips.phe.org.uk/profile-group/mental-health/profile/suicide http://fingertips.phe.org.uk/profile-group/mental-health/pro... Here's the Office for National Statistics data sets: http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2014registrations http://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdea... (Be careful with these. Sometimes people counting "death by suicide" use a different definition for suicide.)
- gmarx 10y ago
  Thanks!

geggam 10y ago

you are under the impression the police discriminate... they do ... if you are blue you get away with everything... everyone else they hate ( the sheep )

dpark 10y ago
This is moronic. Even if you believe that all police are bad actors, it doesn't make any sense that they would be randomly attacking Murdock as he described. Is it impossible? No. Is it far, far less likely than Murdock having a psychotic break and lapsing into paranoia and confusion? Yes.
- geggam 10y ago
  enjoy that illusion... one day you will meet the police and think back .. hopefully you remember and feel at least a bit ashamed
  - dpark 10y ago
    Attitudes like yours are unhelpful. If all police are fundamentally evil, then there can be no conversation about how to fix the problems with police abuses. If all police are not fundamentally evil, then people like you poison the well and make it more difficult to discuss and maybe fix some of the problems. If all police are fundamentally evil, then people like you are wasting everyone's time anyway. Either way, you're not helpful.
    - geggam 10y ago
      because posting on HN is a social fix ? and im moronic ?
      - dpark 10y ago
        Attitudes like yours are poisonous in general, not just on HN. And yes, your paranoid belief that all police are evildoers just waiting around every corner to assault strangers is moronic. Your paranoia is stopping you from engaging in rational thought about the police.

downandout 10y ago

A neighbor told the city's investigators that Murdock had just split up with his girlfriend and was facing eviction How is someone so well known in the software industry so hard up for money that they are facing eviction? Far lesser engineers than he have never had problems earning enough money to get by. The whole thing is very sad, and clearly money wasn't his only problem, but it's one issue that someone with his resume shouldn't have been facing.

Tomte 10y ago
There are other reasons to get evicted besides not paying rent. We don't know why the landlord wanted him out.
- mywittyname 10y ago
  Pissing off the neighbors could have something to do with it. I mean, what are the chances this is the first time he's acted crazy?

lllorddino 10y ago

Autopsy?? The article clearly states the police found him with a cable around his neck.