8 ms·

Research suggests many US parents will lie when saying kids made them happier

81 points by wallflower 10y ago

616c 10y ago
My personal situation is complicated, but I think children make specific kinds of people happy. I have a child, and I really enjoy learning. And we here at HN love the Feynman style "you want to learn, then be able to teach" paradigm. I want to say I am often inspired by far smarter parents than me here, as my son is still less than 5. But I doubt I can catch up to teach him robotics. One man here once quipped he and his son were bonding over the shared development of typed programming language. When my son reacts to input and adapts, he is the ultimate compiler, and I am part of one scraggly development team. When you look at parenting this way, I find it to be that cheesy "most rewarding achievement of your life" commentary far less trite and I feel it internally and beam with pride. I would love to hear counter-arguments, but HN has show me anecdotes where I feel I am reading, coincidentally, the parenting tips of future world leaders and specifically movers and shakers in the CS world by virtue of how they inspire their kids.
chaostheory 10y ago
I don't feel that anyone disputes that children make parents happier (cuteness, inadvertent humor, fulfillment ...) but the responsibilities associated with them (sleep deprivation, education and care related costs, ...) stress everyone out which everyone acknowledges as well
- rconti 10y ago
  It's probably because happiness is a difficult thing to pin down. I could see them as decreasing happiness, but increasing fulfillment. But then, since fulfillment is a big component of happiness, perhaps I'm just defining happiness wrong.
- jasonjei 10y ago
  I can totally see stress as a major factor. Just the thought of financing some or all of college is stressful. Given that most parents want their kids to experience college, I can see that weighing on the minds of many parents.
- abduhl 10y ago
  The paper abstract is quite clear: "parents report lower marital satisfaction compared with nonparents". Now whether you want to argue about marital satisfaction being a good proxy for happiness, which is a loosey-goosey term, is another question.
petewailes 10y ago
Hypothesis: people mostly say having kids makes them happy, because they know that's the right answer and they've never actually stopped to evaluate that statement since the child was 2 days old and the joy hadn't worn off. Like most things, I suspect it's an opinion that's formed and then never reflected on unless something major comes along to force a correction of it. As an aside to this, there's a lot that society and governance can do to make life easier for parents both in the short and long term. Places that do that make the statement more likely to be true, as the article suggests.
- theseatoms 10y ago
  > As an aside to this, there's a lot that society and governance can do to make life easier for parents both in the short and long term. And further subsidize child-bearing? Property taxes already directly fund public schools in most localities in the US.
  - SCAQTony 10y ago
    If we further subsidized child-bearing we would have fewer abortions which for my personal socio-economic beliefs (YMMV) would be a great thing but would the right wing allow that? NO! — Ironic, huh?
    - JackFr 10y ago
      Among those who really see abortion as a compelling issue many are pretty far left on immigration, national defense, capital punishment and social welfare programs. They find themselves stuck in a right wing they're not terribly comfortable in because they were drummed out of the Democratic Party, through its doctrinaire insistence on the abortion license.
      - linkregister 10y ago
        You see this especially strongly in the Catholic community; abortion is almost universally condemned, while the rest of the issues you mentioned are supported. Catholics also traditionally aligned with the Democratic Party (Democratic-Republicans). While you can find a small minority of Democratic politicians who identify as anti-abortion, they typically aren't active about it.
Kristine1975 10y ago
>The researchers caution that their findings don't mean that American parents are less happy than other parents around the world, as some media outlets have reported Like for example the headline of this very article. I guess it was not written by the author.
eevilspock 10y ago
The article seems to cite public policy as the source of the difference. I don't think public policies are the root cause, but rather the underlying values of the culture that gave rise to them (as the article later seems to suggest). I'll bet that the U.S. end of that chart tends to be characterized by cultures that put individualism above all else, while the other end much less so. Individualism is good; I'd never want the other extreme. I think Asian cultures subvert the individual to the group far too much. But the extreme individualism of the U.S. has led to an ever more selfish, narcissistic and cold society, where material gain and personal comfort trumps everything.
- wmt 10y ago
  The Nordics, where having kids also increases your happiness, are also very high on individualism as opposed to collectivism. The key difference to the US are the public policies that allow families never to stress about things like arranging daycare to the kids from the day they born. These policies are not there to combat individualism, but to enable it with taxpaid support networks. Most of them are not poor aids, but state benefits that everyone enjoys, like the free or cheap high quality daycare used by the poor and rich alike.
  - JackFr 10y ago
    Maybe it's the difference between individualism and narcissism.
rday 10y ago
I'd really like to see a study specific to female happiness with children. I live in the US, and I think men and women's experience with children is entirely different. When my wife worked, she missed our kids tremendously. Almost 75% of her take home went to day care. She was pretty miserable. Now she stays home. She gets a lot of off-hand comments from other friends with kids about "how bored they would be if they stayed home". Or from friends without kids about "how they feel like they are doing something with their lives". Now she feels like she isn't doing enough with her life. Maybe she needs thicker skin, or maybe the societal pressure for women is immense. Men working is expected by society. IME, the dads I know who stay home get more of an "awesome bro!" type response when they say they stay home. I just feel like no matter what I do, I will feel happy with kids. No matter what my wife does, she feels like it isn't good enough. [Edit: so many links to books! I've exhausted my audible credits for the month. Thanks for the support!]
- softawre 10y ago
  Wow, I have a very similar experience to yours. My wife worked, same thing, now doesn't work, and she feels lonely and like she (1) isn't contributing and (2) has no adult conversation. I try to help her by mentioning how great she is with the kid, and by taking the kid places by myself so she can go see and do adult things. It is tough, good luck.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Good point. No matter how you arrange it, its important to have respite, regularly. Back when the boys were babies I'd come home Wednesday night, she'd shove the youngest into my arms and head out the door for a night off with the girlfriends. Every Wednesday night. Just her time. It made everything else endurable.
  - brightball 10y ago
    A huge part of that is the lack of OTHER stay at home moms that would previously create an entire social group for each other. It's socially awkward to mix in a stay at home dad into that type of group for a number of reasons. Add in moving away from home and family to the mix as contributors for the lack of adult conversation too.
JoeAltmaier 10y ago
Anything worthwhile is hard. Was I happy day 6 on a weeklong hike on an island in the rain and mosquitoes? It didn't seem like it at the time. Yet I'm going again. Its a silly question really.
- sliverstorm 10y ago
  We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...
- zzalpha 10y ago
  Anything worthwhile is hard. Not to be too harsh, but this is Calvinist BS. Listening to great music isn't hard. Watching a great film isn't hard. Simply spending time with loved ones isn't hard. All are, in my view, worthwhile. Yes, there is a satisfaction in accomplishing something difficult. But that neither makes it inherently worthwhile, nor does it mean all worthwhile things are hard.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    There is no personal accomplishment to hedonistic pleasure. I would call them pleasant, even broadening which I guess is worthwhile, once in a while. So maybe I should say it with many more words and more detail, so non-Calvinists can get it: many very hard, very demanding things are worth doing even though not constantly pleasurable.
Overtonwindow 10y ago
I do think people have children for the wrong reasons, most of them selfish. Honestly I want kids so I have someone to play legos with, or whatever they want to do.
- buckbova 10y ago
  What is a reason to have children that is not selfish unless your doing it to please your SO solely? Of course there's adoption.
  - Overtonwindow 10y ago
    I should have explained my point more. I think parents have children because they feel obligated, or due to religious, family, social, or some other personal need. I don't know if I've ever met anyone or seen anywhere that a couple has asked themselves WHY they are having children, but rather SHOULD they have children. It's a sensitive subject that could make or break a relationship.
  - beachstartup 10y ago
    you forgot the big one -- to please the would-be grandparents.
    - buckbova 10y ago
      Ha! Having children to get your mother(-in-law) off your back? At which point these grandparents now criticize the way you raise your kids at the same time spoiling them. Worth it? Maybe because, let me guess, the grandparents are willing to babysit or provide daycare so you can work. The reason I'd have kids is for that connection only a father can have to his child and the joy a large extended family can bring as my children eventually have children and so on which is completely selfish. But I'd say there's nothing wrong with it in my eyes.
jstewartmobile 10y ago
They could have just posted the bar chart and called it a day. Why is it that when there is so little money out there for real research, there always seems to be plenty floating around for BS like this?
- Joof 10y ago
  I'd guess it's like bikeshedding. Everyone understands the results of this type of study.
- Dirlewanger 10y ago
  Maybe because the article has more to say about the issue than just the bar chart? Is this your first time reading a news publication or something?
  - jstewartmobile 10y ago
    Aside from the cost of raising a child, the bulk of the data in that article was in the chart. Everything else was idle speculation over an arbitrary measurement of "happiness". If they just kept giving Minsky the money like they should have, we could have strong AIs Terminatoring us right now, and we could just get it all over with.
- JackFr 10y ago
  It keeps sociologists off the streets, where they could get into _real_ trouble.
balls187 10y ago
Basic armchair psychology will tell you, nothing can make you happy. Your happiness is your own responsibility. Not all parents may understand that having children may mean drastic changes to lifestyle, and may not have been prepared for the ~27 years of stress that having children bring on. Oddly enough, having kids gives me a purpose in Society, that otherwise being a 36 year old man would not have. Too old to join the military, too young for end-of-life services, too set in my buying habits for marketing to care at all about me. As the wise Stringer Bell once said, you're like a 40 degree day. But being a dad, society is all about that: my lack of physique is called "dadbod" and women can profess to fetishize about it, my asanine advice to my kids are subject of a comedy twitter account, my no-more-give a dame attitude for fashion sense is celebrated, and I even have a national holiday to celebrate being a Dad--which gives me a legit excuse to do what I want to do (which for most dads involves cooking food on a grill for their families)
- infinite8s 10y ago
  27 years? One would hope by 18 years of age one's child (in the descendant sense) would be fairly independent.
  - Ma8ee 10y ago
    But then it gets worse! They'll continue to do things that you consider stupid, but you can't control them any more.
  - thebakeshow 10y ago
    Perhaps he had multiple children, extending the range
  - balls187 10y ago
    My theory (slightly humorous) is that kids don't smarten up until age 27.
  - markc 10y ago
    It does decline, but I think the 27 years is meant to include College, finding a job, a mate, a home - i.e. "launched" and independent. 27 seems to be a somewhat arbitrary number as is my list of "launched" criteria, but in the US kids can no longer be on their parents health-care plans after age 26. That's a significant milestone for many.
a2tech 10y ago
My friends with children after they've had a few drinks have all told my wife and I to not have children. I know this is a small selection of college educated people with comfortable lifestyles, but when every single person I know discloses to me when they're in a truthful state that we're better off not having kids..it makes you think.
- exstudent2 10y ago
  > ..it makes you think. It does, but to me it says a lot more about how hedonistic and consumer focused the middle+ classes of western society are than of some sort of inherent negative associated with having children.
- greyman 10y ago
  For me, having kids is the most fulfilling thing happening in my life. Honestly, that advice is terrible.
  - collyw 10y ago
    When people say kids are the most fulfilling thing in their life, is it because they are didn't have anything really fulfilling in their life before that? I get fulfillment for my job some of the time - though its not the be all and end all in my life and it pissed me off sometimes too. I get a lot more from whitewater kayaking and mountain biking and generally being outdoors in my spare time. Some of my friends have had kids, and most have given up or seriously cut down on the amount that they devote to the sports they loved. Did you have something that gave you a lot of fulfillment before you had kids?
    - greyman 10y ago
      > Did you have something that gave you a lot of fulfillment before you had kids? Yes, and I still do. I am a soft dev, so job is quite fulfilling, I also like mountain hiking, friends, etc. But having a kid is something different, it is just not comparable regarding the level of satisfaction. For me the relationship with my kid is the most fulfilling thing a world can offer. (But of course I wouldnt believe that before I had one)
xenadu02 10y ago
There is definitely a pressure to lie and say everything about kids is great all of the time; that is clearly not the case. I would say that "small" happiness is less due to the huge amount of work and stress. On the flip side "large" happiness (or fulfillment) is higher. Whether that makes sense is a very personal decision. I'm also very early in the journey. I have no idea how it will turn out in 15 years. I am happy that I'll have someone to hand things down to. I'm also happy some of my genes will survive even if all other evidence I existed disappears.
- collyw 10y ago
  I would be surprised if anyones genes survive a few more generations the way we seem to be messing up the planet.
greyman 10y ago
As a father, I still cant believe how someone might be happier without children, or kids have not made him happier... it is a most fulfilling thing to have a relationship with ones own kid. I also do not personally know anyone who said kids didnt make him happier. I am from Europe, not USA, but it is unlikely people are that different there.
- exstudent2 10y ago
  > I am from Europe, not USA, but it is unlikely people are that different there. You would be surprised. Americans receive very strong lifelong messaging about how they should live their life to optimize for immediate comfort. Having and raising children definitely causes strain on one's ability to fulfill the lifestyle that has been marketed to them.
  - theseatoms 10y ago
    Ha, we definitely do. But we also receive lifelong conditioning that raising children should be a central part of one's life. It's pretty easy to convince yourself to be skeptical of this Kool Aid that everyone seems to be drinking.
- Dirlewanger 10y ago
  It may make you happier, but at what cost? Having children is a monumentally massive physical, emotional, financial, and psychological investment. What if there's a problem in the womb and they're born with a physical defect? What if there's a problem at birth and my spouse is now physically scarred for life? What if I get divorced and my wife now legally fucks me out of everything I own, and grooms the children to despise me (something that has become so common in family court that there's a term for it: parental alienation syndrome)? What if a couple years down the road they turn out to be highly autistic? What if they get hit by a bus in their 16th year? What if they turn into a drug addict when they're 19 and never speak to me again? The "what ifs" can go on forever. At some point one has to rationalize whether or not all of this is worth it, to invest so much of oneself into another human being without first considering themselves.
wapapaloobop 10y ago
Children don't make you happier but they do make you develop as a person. I enjoy the company of my children and it saddens me how keen most parents are to offload theirs onto minimum-wage carers (ironically at great expense).
Dirlewanger 10y ago
Not a surprise. Ann Landers asked back in the 70s: If you could do it all over again, would you have kids again? Something like 3/4 said no.
- markc 10y ago
  I've often wondered if this response really means "I regret having children, it was a mistake" OR "I've now experienced the path of having children. Even though it was good, I'd like to experience that other path". They should have asked people without kids "If you could do it all over again, would you have kids this time"?
spaceisballer 10y ago
I think a big part of it is that a lot of people think that having kids is expected of them. I applaud the people who know what they want and follow through no matter what expectations are put on them. Be it with not getting married or not having kids (or vice versa). I wanted kids and so did my wife, our views were the same and we ended up having two kids. It has brought immense happiness to me (and sleep deprivation). I wish I could see them more but I value the time I have with them when I'm home from work. I would never tell anyone they have to have kids or get married. I can share my experiences but how the hell am I supposed to know what makes you happy, you need to find that out and stick to it.
campground 10y ago
"Happiness is for idiots" -DeGaulle (maybe)
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jonheller 10y ago
Jeff Atwood's "On Parenthood" is by far the best and most honest piece I've ever read on what being a parent is like. https://blog.codinghorror.com/on-parenthood/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/on-parenthood/
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  Thanks for the link. That was some really interesting stuff. The "getting the first four years of your life back" bit was pretty spot on.
WWKong 10y ago
I'm curious to see how they surveyed for "happiness". As a parent the initial years are rough just providing care. In the thick of it if someone comes and asks, "are you happy?", the answer is irrelevant (I understand that the question won't be as direct, but the outcome will be similar). IMHO the best question is, "if you could go back in time would you still decide to have children?".
- ashark 10y ago
  > IMHO the best question is, "if you could go back in time would you still decide to have children?". No way you'd get a straight answer to that since it's way, way too close to "do you wish your kids were dead?" It'd probably be tough to come up with any question that probes that sentiment that wouldn't be strongly affected by that problem. My answer would be "go back in time and decide to have these children? 100% yes, no reservations. Go back in time but no guarantee (or even likelihood) that the kids will be the same? Probably would not want kids." Maybe shifting the question to focus in the direction of that second part would help, though I doubt it'd be enough to make it useful.
  - WWKong 10y ago
    Yes. It should be more inline with , "Go back in time but no guarantee that the kids will be the same". Though it will be better than, "are you happy?", it might still not provide a good result because many would have convinced themselves that they need to have kids because "that is how it works".
djrogers 10y ago
I found several problems with the article, and the conclusions of the study. Basic science says correlation != causation, but the study clearly set out with a specific bias in mind. Case in point, this quote: “We know that these problems have been endemic for decades now, and we’ve watched the maternal employment rate in the U.S. steadily erode relative to other countries.” A higher maternal employment rate is now a yardstick for societal health? If that's not evidence of a clear bias on the part of the researchers I don't know what is. The personal fulfillment and societal value of working moms vs stay-at-home moms is a matter that can be debated, but to display such clear bias toward the latter as the 'correct' option makes one question all of the study's conclusions.
throwaway6436 10y ago
You might not want to take parental advice from a fat bastard who sits and plays with his keyboard all day on a computer. Try a grown-up instead. By which I mean, someone who has chosen to develop emotional intelligence. Yes I can see the irony in what I'm saying. Thanks.
- 5ilv3r 10y ago
  Because of you I am reading the article. It's pretty good so far.
- dang 10y ago
  We banned this account for breaking the HN guidelines. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12050678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12050678 and marked it off-topic.
ajmurmann 10y ago
I think the stress and financial cost that having children in the US creates are much larger than in other western countries. I currently don't have children and would not think of moving back to my home country Germany. However, if I had children I would be back in Germany in no time. The entire education system is on average more reliably good and much cheaper.
- kgwgk 10y ago
  I don't know if the situation is worse in the US, but people is clearly more averse to having children in Germany: http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/soc_glance-2014-en/03/02/g3-03.html?contentType=&itemId=%2Fcontent%2Fchapter%2Fsoc_glance-2014-8-en&mimeType=text%2Fhtml&containerItemId=%2Fcontent%2Fserial%2F19991290&accessItemIds=&_csp_=98f35a84cd0975abae8ceba800c9d78d http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/soc_glance-2014-en/03/02/...
  - ajmurmann 10y ago
    Birth rates are definitely some of the lowest on the world in Germany. However, I think that has more to do with how important having family is seen. I also believe that the country being much less religious has to do with it as well.
louprado 10y ago
"While it's honestly the best thing, having kids, if you take away one thing from this lecture, remember this: There are a lot of things that are easier to do before you have kids than after, many of which will make you a better parent when you do have kids." PG, [1] Even a disaggregation of the OP data is unlikely to assist in the decision of wether or not to have children. Instead, hearing a personal experience from someone with whom you are reasonably familiar is more relevant. This also assumes you know yourself fully so you can perform a comparative analysis. That said, I find the above PG quote personally useful. I decided to delay children until I am over 40 (PG was 46 when he had his first child), able to make my own schedule, have financial security so one parent has the option to stay home, and made a solid attempt of most of my major goals. Those requirements do create a risk of becoming too old for children. But for those of us who have time, why not take sincere advice from someone well known that made it work. And if you never have children, just forget the PG quote and take comfort in the OP conclusion instead. [1] http://startupclass.samaltman.com/courses/lec03/ http://startupclass.samaltman.com/courses/lec03/ Edits: grammar, clarity
stcredzero 10y ago
I think our first world society accidentally got arranged "bass-ackwards." We've inherited patterns of academia that were developed in a time before mechanized industry and telecommunications -- when mass communication technology consisted of auditoriums and only wealthy young men were expected and could afford to attend. Why not invent another life-stage past childhood for young adults, during which they are expected to learn, find mates, and raise young children? Really, we're most of the way there with college, but with the weird and biologically contrary expectation that the students avoid having children. Our biology and our psychology seems to encourage human beings to have children at a younger age than our society would have it. Also, the removal of children seems to reduce sexuality to only its hedonistic dimension, which I think is a bit out of balance. (Nothing wrong with hedonism, but that aspect exists in a larger context of life.) Why not restructure colleges and vocational schools in this way?
tezzer 10y ago
My daughters make me very happy, and I'm a better person because I'm trying to make sure they're smart, well adjusted and have good lives. The point of the article is the U.S. has a weak social net to help parents compared to Europe. I feel that. In the short term I'm broke and worried all the time (because day care and housing in Silicon Valley will kill you). In the long term it'll all be fine, and maybe I'm mostly chafing against having to budget (both money and time) for the first time in my life.
jpm_sd 10y ago
My wife is incredibly fortunate to work for a federal agency that allows flexible part time schedules (20-30 hr/wk) on projects that she finds interesting. We have three children (3, 4 and 6 yr old) and while we are spending her entire income on child care, it's a good investment in her future employment (and sanity). I wish part time work were a good option for more people.

81 points by wallflower 10y ago

616c 10y ago

My personal situation is complicated, but I think children make specific kinds of people happy. I have a child, and I really enjoy learning. And we here at HN love the Feynman style "you want to learn, then be able to teach" paradigm. I want to say I am often inspired by far smarter parents than me here, as my son is still less than 5. But I doubt I can catch up to teach him robotics. One man here once quipped he and his son were bonding over the shared development of typed programming language. When my son reacts to input and adapts, he is the ultimate compiler, and I am part of one scraggly development team. When you look at parenting this way, I find it to be that cheesy "most rewarding achievement of your life" commentary far less trite and I feel it internally and beam with pride. I would love to hear counter-arguments, but HN has show me anecdotes where I feel I am reading, coincidentally, the parenting tips of future world leaders and specifically movers and shakers in the CS world by virtue of how they inspire their kids.

chaostheory 10y ago

I don't feel that anyone disputes that children make parents happier (cuteness, inadvertent humor, fulfillment ...) but the responsibilities associated with them (sleep deprivation, education and care related costs, ...) stress everyone out which everyone acknowledges as well

rconti 10y ago
It's probably because happiness is a difficult thing to pin down. I could see them as decreasing happiness, but increasing fulfillment. But then, since fulfillment is a big component of happiness, perhaps I'm just defining happiness wrong.
jasonjei 10y ago
I can totally see stress as a major factor. Just the thought of financing some or all of college is stressful. Given that most parents want their kids to experience college, I can see that weighing on the minds of many parents.
abduhl 10y ago
The paper abstract is quite clear: "parents report lower marital satisfaction compared with nonparents". Now whether you want to argue about marital satisfaction being a good proxy for happiness, which is a loosey-goosey term, is another question.

petewailes 10y ago

Hypothesis: people mostly say having kids makes them happy, because they know that's the right answer and they've never actually stopped to evaluate that statement since the child was 2 days old and the joy hadn't worn off. Like most things, I suspect it's an opinion that's formed and then never reflected on unless something major comes along to force a correction of it. As an aside to this, there's a lot that society and governance can do to make life easier for parents both in the short and long term. Places that do that make the statement more likely to be true, as the article suggests.

theseatoms 10y ago
> As an aside to this, there's a lot that society and governance can do to make life easier for parents both in the short and long term. And further subsidize child-bearing? Property taxes already directly fund public schools in most localities in the US.
- SCAQTony 10y ago
  If we further subsidized child-bearing we would have fewer abortions which for my personal socio-economic beliefs (YMMV) would be a great thing but would the right wing allow that? NO! — Ironic, huh?
  - JackFr 10y ago
    Among those who really see abortion as a compelling issue many are pretty far left on immigration, national defense, capital punishment and social welfare programs. They find themselves stuck in a right wing they're not terribly comfortable in because they were drummed out of the Democratic Party, through its doctrinaire insistence on the abortion license.
    - linkregister 10y ago
      You see this especially strongly in the Catholic community; abortion is almost universally condemned, while the rest of the issues you mentioned are supported. Catholics also traditionally aligned with the Democratic Party (Democratic-Republicans). While you can find a small minority of Democratic politicians who identify as anti-abortion, they typically aren't active about it.

Kristine1975 10y ago

>The researchers caution that their findings don't mean that American parents are less happy than other parents around the world, as some media outlets have reported Like for example the headline of this very article. I guess it was not written by the author.

eevilspock 10y ago

The article seems to cite public policy as the source of the difference. I don't think public policies are the root cause, but rather the underlying values of the culture that gave rise to them (as the article later seems to suggest). I'll bet that the U.S. end of that chart tends to be characterized by cultures that put individualism above all else, while the other end much less so. Individualism is good; I'd never want the other extreme. I think Asian cultures subvert the individual to the group far too much. But the extreme individualism of the U.S. has led to an ever more selfish, narcissistic and cold society, where material gain and personal comfort trumps everything.

wmt 10y ago
The Nordics, where having kids also increases your happiness, are also very high on individualism as opposed to collectivism. The key difference to the US are the public policies that allow families never to stress about things like arranging daycare to the kids from the day they born. These policies are not there to combat individualism, but to enable it with taxpaid support networks. Most of them are not poor aids, but state benefits that everyone enjoys, like the free or cheap high quality daycare used by the poor and rich alike.
- JackFr 10y ago
  Maybe it's the difference between individualism and narcissism.

rday 10y ago

I'd really like to see a study specific to female happiness with children. I live in the US, and I think men and women's experience with children is entirely different. When my wife worked, she missed our kids tremendously. Almost 75% of her take home went to day care. She was pretty miserable. Now she stays home. She gets a lot of off-hand comments from other friends with kids about "how bored they would be if they stayed home". Or from friends without kids about "how they feel like they are doing something with their lives". Now she feels like she isn't doing enough with her life. Maybe she needs thicker skin, or maybe the societal pressure for women is immense. Men working is expected by society. IME, the dads I know who stay home get more of an "awesome bro!" type response when they say they stay home. I just feel like no matter what I do, I will feel happy with kids. No matter what my wife does, she feels like it isn't good enough. [Edit: so many links to books! I've exhausted my audible credits for the month. Thanks for the support!]

softawre 10y ago
Wow, I have a very similar experience to yours. My wife worked, same thing, now doesn't work, and she feels lonely and like she (1) isn't contributing and (2) has no adult conversation. I try to help her by mentioning how great she is with the kid, and by taking the kid places by myself so she can go see and do adult things. It is tough, good luck.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Good point. No matter how you arrange it, its important to have respite, regularly. Back when the boys were babies I'd come home Wednesday night, she'd shove the youngest into my arms and head out the door for a night off with the girlfriends. Every Wednesday night. Just her time. It made everything else endurable.
- brightball 10y ago
  A huge part of that is the lack of OTHER stay at home moms that would previously create an entire social group for each other. It's socially awkward to mix in a stay at home dad into that type of group for a number of reasons. Add in moving away from home and family to the mix as contributors for the lack of adult conversation too.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

Anything worthwhile is hard. Was I happy day 6 on a weeklong hike on an island in the rain and mosquitoes? It didn't seem like it at the time. Yet I'm going again. Its a silly question really.

sliverstorm 10y ago
We choose to go to the Moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard...
zzalpha 10y ago
Anything worthwhile is hard. Not to be too harsh, but this is Calvinist BS. Listening to great music isn't hard. Watching a great film isn't hard. Simply spending time with loved ones isn't hard. All are, in my view, worthwhile. Yes, there is a satisfaction in accomplishing something difficult. But that neither makes it inherently worthwhile, nor does it mean all worthwhile things are hard.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  There is no personal accomplishment to hedonistic pleasure. I would call them pleasant, even broadening which I guess is worthwhile, once in a while. So maybe I should say it with many more words and more detail, so non-Calvinists can get it: many very hard, very demanding things are worth doing even though not constantly pleasurable.

Overtonwindow 10y ago

I do think people have children for the wrong reasons, most of them selfish. Honestly I want kids so I have someone to play legos with, or whatever they want to do.

buckbova 10y ago
What is a reason to have children that is not selfish unless your doing it to please your SO solely? Of course there's adoption.
- Overtonwindow 10y ago
  I should have explained my point more. I think parents have children because they feel obligated, or due to religious, family, social, or some other personal need. I don't know if I've ever met anyone or seen anywhere that a couple has asked themselves WHY they are having children, but rather SHOULD they have children. It's a sensitive subject that could make or break a relationship.
- beachstartup 10y ago
  you forgot the big one -- to please the would-be grandparents.
  - buckbova 10y ago
    Ha! Having children to get your mother(-in-law) off your back? At which point these grandparents now criticize the way you raise your kids at the same time spoiling them. Worth it? Maybe because, let me guess, the grandparents are willing to babysit or provide daycare so you can work. The reason I'd have kids is for that connection only a father can have to his child and the joy a large extended family can bring as my children eventually have children and so on which is completely selfish. But I'd say there's nothing wrong with it in my eyes.

jstewartmobile 10y ago

They could have just posted the bar chart and called it a day. Why is it that when there is so little money out there for real research, there always seems to be plenty floating around for BS like this?

Joof 10y ago
I'd guess it's like bikeshedding. Everyone understands the results of this type of study.
Dirlewanger 10y ago
Maybe because the article has more to say about the issue than just the bar chart? Is this your first time reading a news publication or something?
- jstewartmobile 10y ago
  Aside from the cost of raising a child, the bulk of the data in that article was in the chart. Everything else was idle speculation over an arbitrary measurement of "happiness". If they just kept giving Minsky the money like they should have, we could have strong AIs Terminatoring us right now, and we could just get it all over with.
JackFr 10y ago
It keeps sociologists off the streets, where they could get into _real_ trouble.

balls187 10y ago

Basic armchair psychology will tell you, nothing can make you happy. Your happiness is your own responsibility. Not all parents may understand that having children may mean drastic changes to lifestyle, and may not have been prepared for the ~27 years of stress that having children bring on. Oddly enough, having kids gives me a purpose in Society, that otherwise being a 36 year old man would not have. Too old to join the military, too young for end-of-life services, too set in my buying habits for marketing to care at all about me. As the wise Stringer Bell once said, you're like a 40 degree day. But being a dad, society is all about that: my lack of physique is called "dadbod" and women can profess to fetishize about it, my asanine advice to my kids are subject of a comedy twitter account, my no-more-give a dame attitude for fashion sense is celebrated, and I even have a national holiday to celebrate being a Dad--which gives me a legit excuse to do what I want to do (which for most dads involves cooking food on a grill for their families)

infinite8s 10y ago
27 years? One would hope by 18 years of age one's child (in the descendant sense) would be fairly independent.
- Ma8ee 10y ago
  But then it gets worse! They'll continue to do things that you consider stupid, but you can't control them any more.
- thebakeshow 10y ago
  Perhaps he had multiple children, extending the range
- balls187 10y ago
  My theory (slightly humorous) is that kids don't smarten up until age 27.
- markc 10y ago
  It does decline, but I think the 27 years is meant to include College, finding a job, a mate, a home - i.e. "launched" and independent. 27 seems to be a somewhat arbitrary number as is my list of "launched" criteria, but in the US kids can no longer be on their parents health-care plans after age 26. That's a significant milestone for many.

a2tech 10y ago

My friends with children after they've had a few drinks have all told my wife and I to not have children. I know this is a small selection of college educated people with comfortable lifestyles, but when every single person I know discloses to me when they're in a truthful state that we're better off not having kids..it makes you think.

exstudent2 10y ago
> ..it makes you think. It does, but to me it says a lot more about how hedonistic and consumer focused the middle+ classes of western society are than of some sort of inherent negative associated with having children.
greyman 10y ago
For me, having kids is the most fulfilling thing happening in my life. Honestly, that advice is terrible.
- collyw 10y ago
  When people say kids are the most fulfilling thing in their life, is it because they are didn't have anything really fulfilling in their life before that? I get fulfillment for my job some of the time - though its not the be all and end all in my life and it pissed me off sometimes too. I get a lot more from whitewater kayaking and mountain biking and generally being outdoors in my spare time. Some of my friends have had kids, and most have given up or seriously cut down on the amount that they devote to the sports they loved. Did you have something that gave you a lot of fulfillment before you had kids?
  - greyman 10y ago
    > Did you have something that gave you a lot of fulfillment before you had kids? Yes, and I still do. I am a soft dev, so job is quite fulfilling, I also like mountain hiking, friends, etc. But having a kid is something different, it is just not comparable regarding the level of satisfaction. For me the relationship with my kid is the most fulfilling thing a world can offer. (But of course I wouldnt believe that before I had one)

xenadu02 10y ago

There is definitely a pressure to lie and say everything about kids is great all of the time; that is clearly not the case. I would say that "small" happiness is less due to the huge amount of work and stress. On the flip side "large" happiness (or fulfillment) is higher. Whether that makes sense is a very personal decision. I'm also very early in the journey. I have no idea how it will turn out in 15 years. I am happy that I'll have someone to hand things down to. I'm also happy some of my genes will survive even if all other evidence I existed disappears.

collyw 10y ago
I would be surprised if anyones genes survive a few more generations the way we seem to be messing up the planet.

greyman 10y ago

As a father, I still cant believe how someone might be happier without children, or kids have not made him happier... it is a most fulfilling thing to have a relationship with ones own kid. I also do not personally know anyone who said kids didnt make him happier. I am from Europe, not USA, but it is unlikely people are that different there.

exstudent2 10y ago
> I am from Europe, not USA, but it is unlikely people are that different there. You would be surprised. Americans receive very strong lifelong messaging about how they should live their life to optimize for immediate comfort. Having and raising children definitely causes strain on one's ability to fulfill the lifestyle that has been marketed to them.
- theseatoms 10y ago
  Ha, we definitely do. But we also receive lifelong conditioning that raising children should be a central part of one's life. It's pretty easy to convince yourself to be skeptical of this Kool Aid that everyone seems to be drinking.
Dirlewanger 10y ago
It may make you happier, but at what cost? Having children is a monumentally massive physical, emotional, financial, and psychological investment. What if there's a problem in the womb and they're born with a physical defect? What if there's a problem at birth and my spouse is now physically scarred for life? What if I get divorced and my wife now legally fucks me out of everything I own, and grooms the children to despise me (something that has become so common in family court that there's a term for it: parental alienation syndrome)? What if a couple years down the road they turn out to be highly autistic? What if they get hit by a bus in their 16th year? What if they turn into a drug addict when they're 19 and never speak to me again? The "what ifs" can go on forever. At some point one has to rationalize whether or not all of this is worth it, to invest so much of oneself into another human being without first considering themselves.

wapapaloobop 10y ago

Children don't make you happier but they do make you develop as a person. I enjoy the company of my children and it saddens me how keen most parents are to offload theirs onto minimum-wage carers (ironically at great expense).

Dirlewanger 10y ago

Not a surprise. Ann Landers asked back in the 70s: If you could do it all over again, would you have kids again? Something like 3/4 said no.

markc 10y ago
I've often wondered if this response really means "I regret having children, it was a mistake" OR "I've now experienced the path of having children. Even though it was good, I'd like to experience that other path". They should have asked people without kids "If you could do it all over again, would you have kids this time"?

spaceisballer 10y ago

I think a big part of it is that a lot of people think that having kids is expected of them. I applaud the people who know what they want and follow through no matter what expectations are put on them. Be it with not getting married or not having kids (or vice versa). I wanted kids and so did my wife, our views were the same and we ended up having two kids. It has brought immense happiness to me (and sleep deprivation). I wish I could see them more but I value the time I have with them when I'm home from work. I would never tell anyone they have to have kids or get married. I can share my experiences but how the hell am I supposed to know what makes you happy, you need to find that out and stick to it.

campground 10y ago

"Happiness is for idiots" -DeGaulle (maybe)

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jonheller 10y ago

Jeff Atwood's "On Parenthood" is by far the best and most honest piece I've ever read on what being a parent is like. https://blog.codinghorror.com/on-parenthood/ https://blog.codinghorror.com/on-parenthood/

5ilv3r 10y ago
Thanks for the link. That was some really interesting stuff. The "getting the first four years of your life back" bit was pretty spot on.

WWKong 10y ago

I'm curious to see how they surveyed for "happiness". As a parent the initial years are rough just providing care. In the thick of it if someone comes and asks, "are you happy?", the answer is irrelevant (I understand that the question won't be as direct, but the outcome will be similar). IMHO the best question is, "if you could go back in time would you still decide to have children?".

ashark 10y ago
> IMHO the best question is, "if you could go back in time would you still decide to have children?". No way you'd get a straight answer to that since it's way, way too close to "do you wish your kids were dead?" It'd probably be tough to come up with any question that probes that sentiment that wouldn't be strongly affected by that problem. My answer would be "go back in time and decide to have these children? 100% yes, no reservations. Go back in time but no guarantee (or even likelihood) that the kids will be the same? Probably would not want kids." Maybe shifting the question to focus in the direction of that second part would help, though I doubt it'd be enough to make it useful.
- WWKong 10y ago
  Yes. It should be more inline with , "Go back in time but no guarantee that the kids will be the same". Though it will be better than, "are you happy?", it might still not provide a good result because many would have convinced themselves that they need to have kids because "that is how it works".

djrogers 10y ago

I found several problems with the article, and the conclusions of the study. Basic science says correlation != causation, but the study clearly set out with a specific bias in mind. Case in point, this quote: “We know that these problems have been endemic for decades now, and we’ve watched the maternal employment rate in the U.S. steadily erode relative to other countries.” A higher maternal employment rate is now a yardstick for societal health? If that's not evidence of a clear bias on the part of the researchers I don't know what is. The personal fulfillment and societal value of working moms vs stay-at-home moms is a matter that can be debated, but to display such clear bias toward the latter as the 'correct' option makes one question all of the study's conclusions.

throwaway6436 10y ago

You might not want to take parental advice from a fat bastard who sits and plays with his keyboard all day on a computer. Try a grown-up instead. By which I mean, someone who has chosen to develop emotional intelligence. Yes I can see the irony in what I'm saying. Thanks.

5ilv3r 10y ago
Because of you I am reading the article. It's pretty good so far.
dang 10y ago
We banned this account for breaking the HN guidelines. We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12050678 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12050678 and marked it off-topic.

ajmurmann 10y ago

I think the stress and financial cost that having children in the US creates are much larger than in other western countries. I currently don't have children and would not think of moving back to my home country Germany. However, if I had children I would be back in Germany in no time. The entire education system is on average more reliably good and much cheaper.

kgwgk 10y ago
I don't know if the situation is worse in the US, but people is clearly more averse to having children in Germany: http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/soc_glance-2014-en/03/02/g3-03.html?contentType=&itemId=%2Fcontent%2Fchapter%2Fsoc_glance-2014-8-en&mimeType=text%2Fhtml&containerItemId=%2Fcontent%2Fserial%2F19991290&accessItemIds=&_csp_=98f35a84cd0975abae8ceba800c9d78d http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/soc_glance-2014-en/03/02/...
- ajmurmann 10y ago
  Birth rates are definitely some of the lowest on the world in Germany. However, I think that has more to do with how important having family is seen. I also believe that the country being much less religious has to do with it as well.

louprado 10y ago

"While it's honestly the best thing, having kids, if you take away one thing from this lecture, remember this: There are a lot of things that are easier to do before you have kids than after, many of which will make you a better parent when you do have kids." PG, [1] Even a disaggregation of the OP data is unlikely to assist in the decision of wether or not to have children. Instead, hearing a personal experience from someone with whom you are reasonably familiar is more relevant. This also assumes you know yourself fully so you can perform a comparative analysis. That said, I find the above PG quote personally useful. I decided to delay children until I am over 40 (PG was 46 when he had his first child), able to make my own schedule, have financial security so one parent has the option to stay home, and made a solid attempt of most of my major goals. Those requirements do create a risk of becoming too old for children. But for those of us who have time, why not take sincere advice from someone well known that made it work. And if you never have children, just forget the PG quote and take comfort in the OP conclusion instead. [1] http://startupclass.samaltman.com/courses/lec03/ http://startupclass.samaltman.com/courses/lec03/ Edits: grammar, clarity

stcredzero 10y ago

I think our first world society accidentally got arranged "bass-ackwards." We've inherited patterns of academia that were developed in a time before mechanized industry and telecommunications -- when mass communication technology consisted of auditoriums and only wealthy young men were expected and could afford to attend. Why not invent another life-stage past childhood for young adults, during which they are expected to learn, find mates, and raise young children? Really, we're most of the way there with college, but with the weird and biologically contrary expectation that the students avoid having children. Our biology and our psychology seems to encourage human beings to have children at a younger age than our society would have it. Also, the removal of children seems to reduce sexuality to only its hedonistic dimension, which I think is a bit out of balance. (Nothing wrong with hedonism, but that aspect exists in a larger context of life.) Why not restructure colleges and vocational schools in this way?

tezzer 10y ago

My daughters make me very happy, and I'm a better person because I'm trying to make sure they're smart, well adjusted and have good lives. The point of the article is the U.S. has a weak social net to help parents compared to Europe. I feel that. In the short term I'm broke and worried all the time (because day care and housing in Silicon Valley will kill you). In the long term it'll all be fine, and maybe I'm mostly chafing against having to budget (both money and time) for the first time in my life.

jpm_sd 10y ago

My wife is incredibly fortunate to work for a federal agency that allows flexible part time schedules (20-30 hr/wk) on projects that she finds interesting. We have three children (3, 4 and 6 yr old) and while we are spending her entire income on child care, it's a good investment in her future employment (and sanity). I wish part time work were a good option for more people.