5 ms·

Democracy doesn't work in most middle east nations, it doesn't work in Russia also, they had democracy in 90s it ended with organized crime ruling the nation, k

by lossolo 10y ago

Democracy doesn't work in most middle east nations, it doesn't work in Russia also, they had democracy in 90s it ended with organized crime ruling the nation, killing politics, pensions not being payed etc. They have enough of democracy. Putin has 80-90% support in the nation. You know how many people are protesting ? Around ~10k max in Moscow in 146 mil nation. And i am writing that as liberal person that supports democracy. Liberal democracy is not panacea for everything.

JumpCrisscross 10y ago
> [Russia] had democracy in 90s Russia had elections in the 1990s. Elections are just one component of democracy [1]. Protecting the rights of the minority from the will of the majority and constraining the rulers within the law (i.e. the rule of law) were not features of Russia's heady days in the go-go 90s. [1] https://web.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/WhaIsDemocracy012004.htm https://web.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/WhaIsDemocracy012004...
negus 10y ago
10k? And who are these millions, supporting the man, who states that Putin's party and Putin himself are thieves? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_mayoral_election,_2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_mayoral_election,_2013
- vkazanov 10y ago
  600k smth. Not even a million.
  - dsabanin 10y ago
    Are you kidding? Even 600k is a very significant portion of the city's population! Given that a lot of people are just passive and will never come to public protest, this is an incredible evidence of support for the opposition to the regime from the masses.
    - Dolores12 10y ago
      As long as democracy is a rule of majority nobody gives a %uck about those 10k-600k.
      - dsabanin 10y ago
        Until there are fair elections, with equal access to media for all candidates and equal material resources for all parties, we will never know what majority wants. Right now, state-sponsored polls can provide any result elite wants. Besides, after you control all the important media for at least last 10 years, it's not a surprise that people in Russia think what they think. They will get robbed and abused again and again and think it's good for them.
        vkazanov 10y ago
        Just wondering: so you are one of those bright souls that know where the light is..? People are not as stupid as you think they are. That's what democracy is about, like it or not.
  - negus 10y ago
    nop. 27.24% not all citizens, but only Moscow residents were allowed to participate, so probably 40m+
- Dolores12 10y ago
  Voting for a mayor is not equal voting against Putin. Your logic is flawed.
hx87 10y ago
> it ended with organized crime ruling the nation That's still the case, except there's just one dominant family, which to be fair has its benefits for the country. No, liberal democracy isn't a panacea for everything, but at some point the security vs freedom tradeoff fails and further reductions in freedom produce no security benefits, or any benefits at all to society.
jacquesm 10y ago
Maybe murdering the opposition has the effect of making people a little reluctant to speak out or attend demonstrations.
blahi 10y ago
The 90s were a result of the same corrupt people refusing to let go of the power. The KGB just went in silent mode and took control of the country through economic means and agents in key positions in the media and judicial and LE systems. Stasi had the same plans as did every other country in the Bloc. Some were fought off (Baltics, Czech), others are worked very well (Bulgaria).
jdimov10 10y ago
Bulgaria has democracy... Since the communist regime fell in the 90's, the country has been ruled exclusively by the offspring of former communist leaders, in a way that makes the Sicilian mafia look like amateurs. Everything of value in the country (assets, manufacturing, agriculture) has been looted and the money stashed in private accounts abroad. The majority of people who still live there are starving and living in miserable conditions - everyone with half a brain and some saved (or borrowed) money has long left the country (more than 30% of the native population, in my estimates) and is unlikely to ever come back. Those who remain are primarily from the Turkish and Gypsy (aka. "Roma") minorities - people who are consistently bribed at "democratic" elections with (wait for it...) cheap street food. Throw them a burger, they'll vote for whoever you want. As many times as you want :) But, yea, it's a EU country... in NATO and all that.. modern, democratic.. Long live democracy.
- openasocket 10y ago
  That's all bad, but what would you propose instead of democracy?
  - jdimov10 10y ago
    Putin. Like it or not, that's the only answer. A VERY strong, totalitarian leader who fully disregards his own people AND foreign interests, while having at least some interest in improving the economy of the country, no matter what it takes. And, sure, benefiting tremendously in the process, but if you ask me - well deserved.
    - guard-of-terra 10y ago
      You can take him, we no longer have need. When can you come? Better bring a truck. Seriously tho. Did you notice a lot of Russians in Bulgaria recently? Living, buying property, being annoying? Why did you think they left Russia and come to Bulgaria? Couldn't stand the awesomness? What Putin did all these years: spent oil dollars that suddently surged, increasing wages without caring for productivity. Invited millions of Muslim migrants from neighbouring countries while young/educated Russians were leaving. Demolished the remnants of elections system and separation of branches of governnment. He also lost Ukraine and had the best international strategy of buying allies for cash.
Grue3 10y ago
>Democracy doesn't work in most middle east nations, it doesn't work in Russia also Sounds kinda racist, when you think about it. Like we're lesser people or something, and can't enjoy basic human rights.
guard-of-terra 10y ago
> in 90s "90s" that you're referring too actually lasted around 7 years, from 1992 to 1999. Putin is already full 17 years on his throne and there's no longer any point in blaming anybody other than himself in any shortcomings. It was enough time to do whatever he wanted. He wanted to build a kleptocracy and that he did. > Putin has 80-90% support in the nation. Putin says so. > Around ~10k max in Moscow Putin says so. > i am writing that as liberal person Why then are you repeating Putin's lies?
panglott 10y ago
Elections and legislative bodies do not constitute democracy, in and of themselves. Democracy requires, foremost, a strong civil society, the rule of law, and the protection of individual and minority rights.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
duaneb 10y ago
> Democracy doesn't work in most middle east nations Democracy doesn't work in a lot of situations; this is not an inherent geographical attribute. > it doesn't work in Russia also Well, this has never been observed in Russia, so we'll never know. > Liberal democracy is not panacea for everything. Nobody claims this. But you can at least trust your neighbor not to turn you into the police because of due process. I'm that's not necessary in Russia because the government of course never commits human rights violations or makes mistakes.

by lossolo 10y ago

JumpCrisscross 10y ago

> [Russia] had democracy in 90s Russia had elections in the 1990s. Elections are just one component of democracy [1]. Protecting the rights of the minority from the will of the majority and constraining the rulers within the law (i.e. the rule of law) were not features of Russia's heady days in the go-go 90s. [1] https://web.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/WhaIsDemocracy012004.htm https://web.stanford.edu/~ldiamond/iraq/WhaIsDemocracy012004...

negus 10y ago

10k? And who are these millions, supporting the man, who states that Putin's party and Putin himself are thieves? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_mayoral_election,_2013 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moscow_mayoral_election,_2013

vkazanov 10y ago
600k smth. Not even a million.
- dsabanin 10y ago
  Are you kidding? Even 600k is a very significant portion of the city's population! Given that a lot of people are just passive and will never come to public protest, this is an incredible evidence of support for the opposition to the regime from the masses.
  - Dolores12 10y ago
    As long as democracy is a rule of majority nobody gives a %uck about those 10k-600k.
    - dsabanin 10y ago
      Until there are fair elections, with equal access to media for all candidates and equal material resources for all parties, we will never know what majority wants. Right now, state-sponsored polls can provide any result elite wants. Besides, after you control all the important media for at least last 10 years, it's not a surprise that people in Russia think what they think. They will get robbed and abused again and again and think it's good for them.
      - vkazanov 10y ago
        Just wondering: so you are one of those bright souls that know where the light is..? People are not as stupid as you think they are. That's what democracy is about, like it or not.
- negus 10y ago
  nop. 27.24% not all citizens, but only Moscow residents were allowed to participate, so probably 40m+
Dolores12 10y ago
Voting for a mayor is not equal voting against Putin. Your logic is flawed.

hx87 10y ago

> it ended with organized crime ruling the nation That's still the case, except there's just one dominant family, which to be fair has its benefits for the country. No, liberal democracy isn't a panacea for everything, but at some point the security vs freedom tradeoff fails and further reductions in freedom produce no security benefits, or any benefits at all to society.

jacquesm 10y ago

Maybe murdering the opposition has the effect of making people a little reluctant to speak out or attend demonstrations.

blahi 10y ago

The 90s were a result of the same corrupt people refusing to let go of the power. The KGB just went in silent mode and took control of the country through economic means and agents in key positions in the media and judicial and LE systems. Stasi had the same plans as did every other country in the Bloc. Some were fought off (Baltics, Czech), others are worked very well (Bulgaria).

jdimov10 10y ago

Bulgaria has democracy... Since the communist regime fell in the 90's, the country has been ruled exclusively by the offspring of former communist leaders, in a way that makes the Sicilian mafia look like amateurs. Everything of value in the country (assets, manufacturing, agriculture) has been looted and the money stashed in private accounts abroad. The majority of people who still live there are starving and living in miserable conditions - everyone with half a brain and some saved (or borrowed) money has long left the country (more than 30% of the native population, in my estimates) and is unlikely to ever come back. Those who remain are primarily from the Turkish and Gypsy (aka. "Roma") minorities - people who are consistently bribed at "democratic" elections with (wait for it...) cheap street food. Throw them a burger, they'll vote for whoever you want. As many times as you want :) But, yea, it's a EU country... in NATO and all that.. modern, democratic.. Long live democracy.

openasocket 10y ago
That's all bad, but what would you propose instead of democracy?
- jdimov10 10y ago
  Putin. Like it or not, that's the only answer. A VERY strong, totalitarian leader who fully disregards his own people AND foreign interests, while having at least some interest in improving the economy of the country, no matter what it takes. And, sure, benefiting tremendously in the process, but if you ask me - well deserved.
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    You can take him, we no longer have need. When can you come? Better bring a truck. Seriously tho. Did you notice a lot of Russians in Bulgaria recently? Living, buying property, being annoying? Why did you think they left Russia and come to Bulgaria? Couldn't stand the awesomness? What Putin did all these years: spent oil dollars that suddently surged, increasing wages without caring for productivity. Invited millions of Muslim migrants from neighbouring countries while young/educated Russians were leaving. Demolished the remnants of elections system and separation of branches of governnment. He also lost Ukraine and had the best international strategy of buying allies for cash.

Grue3 10y ago

>Democracy doesn't work in most middle east nations, it doesn't work in Russia also Sounds kinda racist, when you think about it. Like we're lesser people or something, and can't enjoy basic human rights.

guard-of-terra 10y ago

> in 90s "90s" that you're referring too actually lasted around 7 years, from 1992 to 1999. Putin is already full 17 years on his throne and there's no longer any point in blaming anybody other than himself in any shortcomings. It was enough time to do whatever he wanted. He wanted to build a kleptocracy and that he did. > Putin has 80-90% support in the nation. Putin says so. > Around ~10k max in Moscow Putin says so. > i am writing that as liberal person Why then are you repeating Putin's lies?

panglott 10y ago

Elections and legislative bodies do not constitute democracy, in and of themselves. Democracy requires, foremost, a strong civil society, the rule of law, and the protection of individual and minority rights.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

duaneb 10y ago

> Democracy doesn't work in most middle east nations Democracy doesn't work in a lot of situations; this is not an inherent geographical attribute. > it doesn't work in Russia also Well, this has never been observed in Russia, so we'll never know. > Liberal democracy is not panacea for everything. Nobody claims this. But you can at least trust your neighbor not to turn you into the police because of due process. I'm that's not necessary in Russia because the government of course never commits human rights violations or makes mistakes.