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I don't think his point was that we should loosen our restrictions, but re-direct our attention on the biggest abusers. Right now that's China. And it's not eve

I don't think his point was that we should loosen our restrictions, but re-direct our attention on the biggest abusers. Right now that's China. And it's not even close. You would need to combine the emissions of the U.S, India and the entirety of the European Union to equal China's annual CO2 emissions. See for yourself: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di... Basically, China emits as much CO2 as the next 3 countries. And they do nothing to curb it. Oh, they have regulations on books (Hey look, see, we have laws too!) but there is virtually zero enforcement unless something big is coming to town, like the olympics. And then they only focus on the relevant region, not the whole country. Oh, and they tell the factories to turn off completely rather than adding scrubbers or filtering. China could reduce its emissions by orders of magnitude if they could get these factory owners and coal plants to put the bare minimum filters/scrubbers in play. But that cost money, and factory owners/government need every penny. Regulations you say? I must have forgot my monthly bribe money. Here you go sir. That's how it plays out, and will continue to play out until there is a massive systemic change to China's culture. The corruption is simply to high for anything else. They rank 100 on corruption, with 1 being the least corrupt. The U.S? Usually between 13 and 17. Source: http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results http://www.transparency.org/cpi2014/results

mikeash 10y ago
We're not talking about CO2 emissions here, we're talking about local pollution such as fine particulates and ozone. I've noticed that discussions about pollution frequently mix up CO2 and other types of pollution. It's weird. If you want to combat climate change, then yes, efforts should be directed at China. But if you want clean air in the United States, then efforts should be directed at the United States, and possibly parts of Canada, Mexico, and Cuba. (Although I doubt Cuba contributes much.)
- venomsnake 10y ago
  If the US buys only great for the air products - anyone that sells in US must make them. Once you have the infrastructure in place - it may be cheaper to produce all clean instead of half clean/half polluting.
  - mikeash 10y ago
    Why should the US put all that effort into cleaning up the air in China? For something like CO2 it makes perfect sense. That has global impact, so emissions anywhere are essentially the same. But when it comes to particulates and air quality, it's mostly a local problem. Polluting Chinese factories and cars hurt people in China. The Chinese government and people should be the ones making the effort to clean it up. There's no reason for the US to take it on, unless you're suggesting that we do it as some sort of massive charity scheme.
    - ptaipale 10y ago
      >Why should the US put all that effort into cleaning up the air in China? 1) For altruistic reasons: help people who suffer. 2) For selfish reasons: block from markets industrial competitors who are gaining an advantage by applying much poorer environmental norms and therefore take market share.
      - oldmanjay 10y ago
        For additional selfish reasons: there's only one atmosphere. ruining it anywhere ruins it everywhere i'm sort of surprised that would need to be pointed out, though
        mikeash 10y ago
        Bad air quality in China has very little effect on air quality here, so that's not really true. It is true for CO2, but it's not true for many other pollutants.
        ptaipale 10y ago
        This was specifically about other pollutants than CO2. Those have local impact, so bad air in China doesn't show up in America or Europe.
        venomsnake 10y ago
jdietrich 10y ago
Your own link shows that China's per-capita CO2 emissions are half that of the US. It is rank hypocrisy to say that a Chinese person has less right to pollute than an American.
- devy 10y ago
  Yup, exactly my point!
- mahranch 10y ago
  Per-capita is nonsense. It doesn't matter how much pollution is being released per person, we all live on the same rock. Though if you want to go that route, India trounces China on C02, despite having more people.
devy 10y ago
I think it's safe to say human activities is the biggest cause of carbon emission increase in the last few hundred years. Given that, let's get the facts straight: - China has 1.382 billion people, India is a close second with 1.327 billion people and United States is a distant 3rd with 324 million people [1] - Since human activities are the major factor of carbon emission increase. Let's talk a look at the emission by capita data as it's a better metric to proportionally tells the whole picture. According to 2013's data[2], US is ranked at #7 with 16.5 ton per capita. The first 6 countries are mostly middle east oil producers with the exception of Australia. That's more than 2x of China's per capita rate or almost 10x of India's. So it's hypocritical for someone from developed countries to criticize developing countries because if China and India were emitting CO2 at the rate of United States', the total emission would have been A LOT WORSE! (I'll leave the math for you to calculate how many times worse :-) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_populatio... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...
- mahranch 10y ago
  Except India's CO2 emissions are less than a third of China's, despite having more people. End of story really. Per capita is a nonsense argument by someone trying to win on technicalities. Unfortunately, "the earth" doesn't care how many people a particular country has, it makes no difference to the environment. It might make a difference if they were actually using the C02 to do something worthwhile, instead they're using it to make goods to sell for a profit. It's about profit and has nothing to do with China being an developing/industrial country new to the game.
  - devy 10y ago
    Except India's CO2 emissions are less than a third of China's, despite having more people. That's categorically false! India still has less population than China's despite of getting real close in recent years. It's in my previous post's references. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_populatio... Per capita is a common sense rather because more people further developed hence more industrialization and more CO2 emission. Along the same lines, smogs and air pollution are also part of the emission that had happened badly for the major industrial hubs in the western world like London[1] and Los Angeles[2] in the early 20th century. Although most developed countries has realized the environmental impact of industrialization and the cost of repairing it. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_the_United_St...
vkou 10y ago
China emits all of this CO2, because the US and the EU moved most of their manufacturing to it. This cooks the greenhouse gas books, but at the end of the day, the planet doesn't care. You can't have a non-polluting China, and cheap crap at Wal-Mart.
- mahranch 10y ago
  So you're trying to blame the west? As if China cannot simply decide to clean the air before it leaves their factories? Are western businesses putting guns to the Chinese factory-owner's heads? I think not. They're in it for the profit and know full well what they're doing. China is a country capable of deciding what it wants for itself. If it wants to be a factory, then that's what it will be. It's "grown up" enough to make its own decisions and be held accountable for them. Blaming the west is just that; trying to redirect the blame. I say good, let manufacturing move back to the countries they came from. Let them operate under actual regulations. It will be slightly more expense, maybe, but the air will be cleaner. That would require China to do its job and enforce environmental regulations. Which they're not willing to do because profits... So no, the west gets none of the blame here. It's 100% China. If a gang war broke out over drug dealing spots, would you blame the drug user for the violence? Of course you wouldn't. The dealers are the ones responsible. They have free will and can choose to be violent, non-violent, or not deal at all.
  - vkou 10y ago
    Not blame - just point out that our lifestyles are only possible because China is a large CO2 emitter. We can't have one without the other.
exabrial 10y ago
Yep, that's exactly what I was saying. But it's ok, a good downvote every once in awhile is good for the soul.

mikeash 10y ago

We're not talking about CO2 emissions here, we're talking about local pollution such as fine particulates and ozone. I've noticed that discussions about pollution frequently mix up CO2 and other types of pollution. It's weird. If you want to combat climate change, then yes, efforts should be directed at China. But if you want clean air in the United States, then efforts should be directed at the United States, and possibly parts of Canada, Mexico, and Cuba. (Although I doubt Cuba contributes much.)

venomsnake 10y ago
If the US buys only great for the air products - anyone that sells in US must make them. Once you have the infrastructure in place - it may be cheaper to produce all clean instead of half clean/half polluting.
- mikeash 10y ago
  Why should the US put all that effort into cleaning up the air in China? For something like CO2 it makes perfect sense. That has global impact, so emissions anywhere are essentially the same. But when it comes to particulates and air quality, it's mostly a local problem. Polluting Chinese factories and cars hurt people in China. The Chinese government and people should be the ones making the effort to clean it up. There's no reason for the US to take it on, unless you're suggesting that we do it as some sort of massive charity scheme.
  - ptaipale 10y ago
    >Why should the US put all that effort into cleaning up the air in China? 1) For altruistic reasons: help people who suffer. 2) For selfish reasons: block from markets industrial competitors who are gaining an advantage by applying much poorer environmental norms and therefore take market share.
    - oldmanjay 10y ago
      For additional selfish reasons: there's only one atmosphere. ruining it anywhere ruins it everywhere i'm sort of surprised that would need to be pointed out, though
      - mikeash 10y ago
        Bad air quality in China has very little effect on air quality here, so that's not really true. It is true for CO2, but it's not true for many other pollutants.
      - ptaipale 10y ago
        This was specifically about other pollutants than CO2. Those have local impact, so bad air in China doesn't show up in America or Europe.
        venomsnake 10y ago

jdietrich 10y ago

Your own link shows that China's per-capita CO2 emissions are half that of the US. It is rank hypocrisy to say that a Chinese person has less right to pollute than an American.

devy 10y ago
Yup, exactly my point!
mahranch 10y ago
Per-capita is nonsense. It doesn't matter how much pollution is being released per person, we all live on the same rock. Though if you want to go that route, India trounces China on C02, despite having more people.

devy 10y ago

I think it's safe to say human activities is the biggest cause of carbon emission increase in the last few hundred years. Given that, let's get the facts straight: - China has 1.382 billion people, India is a close second with 1.327 billion people and United States is a distant 3rd with 324 million people [1] - Since human activities are the major factor of carbon emission increase. Let's talk a look at the emission by capita data as it's a better metric to proportionally tells the whole picture. According to 2013's data[2], US is ranked at #7 with 16.5 ton per capita. The first 6 countries are mostly middle east oil producers with the exception of Australia. That's more than 2x of China's per capita rate or almost 10x of India's. So it's hypocritical for someone from developed countries to criticize developing countries because if China and India were emitting CO2 at the rate of United States', the total emission would have been A LOT WORSE! (I'll leave the math for you to calculate how many times worse :-) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_populatio... [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_dioxide_emissions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_carbon_di...

mahranch 10y ago
Except India's CO2 emissions are less than a third of China's, despite having more people. End of story really. Per capita is a nonsense argument by someone trying to win on technicalities. Unfortunately, "the earth" doesn't care how many people a particular country has, it makes no difference to the environment. It might make a difference if they were actually using the C02 to do something worthwhile, instead they're using it to make goods to sell for a profit. It's about profit and has nothing to do with China being an developing/industrial country new to the game.
- devy 10y ago
  Except India's CO2 emissions are less than a third of China's, despite having more people. That's categorically false! India still has less population than China's despite of getting real close in recent years. It's in my previous post's references. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_(United_Nations) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_populatio... Per capita is a common sense rather because more people further developed hence more industrialization and more CO2 emission. Along the same lines, smogs and air pollution are also part of the emission that had happened badly for the major industrial hubs in the western world like London[1] and Los Angeles[2] in the early 20th century. Although most developed countries has realized the environmental impact of industrialization and the cost of repairing it. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Smog [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_pollution_in_the_United_St...

vkou 10y ago

China emits all of this CO2, because the US and the EU moved most of their manufacturing to it. This cooks the greenhouse gas books, but at the end of the day, the planet doesn't care. You can't have a non-polluting China, and cheap crap at Wal-Mart.

mahranch 10y ago
So you're trying to blame the west? As if China cannot simply decide to clean the air before it leaves their factories? Are western businesses putting guns to the Chinese factory-owner's heads? I think not. They're in it for the profit and know full well what they're doing. China is a country capable of deciding what it wants for itself. If it wants to be a factory, then that's what it will be. It's "grown up" enough to make its own decisions and be held accountable for them. Blaming the west is just that; trying to redirect the blame. I say good, let manufacturing move back to the countries they came from. Let them operate under actual regulations. It will be slightly more expense, maybe, but the air will be cleaner. That would require China to do its job and enforce environmental regulations. Which they're not willing to do because profits... So no, the west gets none of the blame here. It's 100% China. If a gang war broke out over drug dealing spots, would you blame the drug user for the violence? Of course you wouldn't. The dealers are the ones responsible. They have free will and can choose to be violent, non-violent, or not deal at all.
- vkou 10y ago
  Not blame - just point out that our lifestyles are only possible because China is a large CO2 emitter. We can't have one without the other.

exabrial 10y ago

Yep, that's exactly what I was saying. But it's ok, a good downvote every once in awhile is good for the soul.