4 ms·

Polluted air is a symptom of being poor, and making the reasonable trade off between cost and long-term health risks. China doesn't pollute now because they so

Polluted air is a symptom of being poor, and making the reasonable trade off between cost and long-term health risks. China doesn't pollute now because they somehow have to learn valuable lessons in democracy; they pollute because they can't afford the same luxuries we have in the US.

mikeash 10y ago
That may be the case sometimes, but I doubt it's the case in China, at least not always. Beijing is fairly wealthy these days, yet is still polluted like crazy. The health impacts are enormous. The reason it persists is because the the costs of cleaning it up are concentrated on a few, while the costs of being exposed are distributed among many, and there's no mechanism to push those costs back onto the responsible parties. India may well be a different story. Either way, polluters should be made to bear the costs of their pollution. Then the correct course of action just falls out naturally. If the pollution is still worth the cost, it will continue. If it's not, it will stop.
- mc32 10y ago
  I agree with disincentivising pollution, but I'm a bit pessimistic it could work in India, if only because India is less centralized than China and there is a lot more local corruption (not that China doesn't have local corruption, but the central gov can bring things to bear when it wants).
- jessriedel 10y ago
  >Beijing is fairly wealthy these days, yet is still polluted like crazy....The reason it persists is because the the costs of cleaning it up are concentrated on a few, while the costs of being exposed are distributed among many, and there's no mechanism to push those costs back onto the responsible parties. I don't know the details, but I suspect my explanation is better. Chinese per capita GDP is $6.8k, which is the equivalent of 1910 USA. Beijing is $10k, which is 1940 USA. Parts of the US had similarly bad or worse smog up into the '40s. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2013/10/25/u-s-once-had-air-pollution-to-match-chinas-today/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/...
  - mikeash 10y ago
    According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Beijing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Beijing, Beijing's per-capita GDP in 2013 was $15,000 nominal and $22,000 PPP. It's probably a fair bit higher today. That's more like 1990 USA, not 1940.
    - jessriedel 10y ago
      OK, but I think major cities in the US had much larger GDP per capita than the nation as a whole too, both in 1940 and 1990. It's also not clear to me that PPP is the relevant metric here; low cost of consumer prices does not necessarily translate into cheap factory cleaning tech even if it does mean folks will be willing to pay more for clean air. Furthermore, it's not surprising that factory technology may lag economic growth more in China since China is growing faster than the US.
mc32 10y ago
It's not a symptom of being poor. It's more a symptom of growth transitioning away from being poor but not skipping the pollution stage. They could very well grow with modern technology now that it is available and proven --something countries which industrialized earlier didn't have. Not only technology but the knowledge of the effects. Nowadays people don't experiment with radioactive elements in their basement labs the way people did in the early 20th cent. because we know more about those substances and their effects on health.
ams6110 10y ago
It's also a symptom of corrupt communist governments.

mikeash 10y ago

That may be the case sometimes, but I doubt it's the case in China, at least not always. Beijing is fairly wealthy these days, yet is still polluted like crazy. The health impacts are enormous. The reason it persists is because the the costs of cleaning it up are concentrated on a few, while the costs of being exposed are distributed among many, and there's no mechanism to push those costs back onto the responsible parties. India may well be a different story. Either way, polluters should be made to bear the costs of their pollution. Then the correct course of action just falls out naturally. If the pollution is still worth the cost, it will continue. If it's not, it will stop.

mc32 10y ago
I agree with disincentivising pollution, but I'm a bit pessimistic it could work in India, if only because India is less centralized than China and there is a lot more local corruption (not that China doesn't have local corruption, but the central gov can bring things to bear when it wants).
jessriedel 10y ago
>Beijing is fairly wealthy these days, yet is still polluted like crazy....The reason it persists is because the the costs of cleaning it up are concentrated on a few, while the costs of being exposed are distributed among many, and there's no mechanism to push those costs back onto the responsible parties. I don't know the details, but I suspect my explanation is better. Chinese per capita GDP is $6.8k, which is the equivalent of 1910 USA. Beijing is $10k, which is 1940 USA. Parts of the US had similarly bad or worse smog up into the '40s. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/2013/10/25/u-s-once-had-air-pollution-to-match-chinas-today/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/capital-weather-gang/wp/...
- mikeash 10y ago
  According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Beijing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Beijing, Beijing's per-capita GDP in 2013 was $15,000 nominal and $22,000 PPP. It's probably a fair bit higher today. That's more like 1990 USA, not 1940.
  - jessriedel 10y ago
    OK, but I think major cities in the US had much larger GDP per capita than the nation as a whole too, both in 1940 and 1990. It's also not clear to me that PPP is the relevant metric here; low cost of consumer prices does not necessarily translate into cheap factory cleaning tech even if it does mean folks will be willing to pay more for clean air. Furthermore, it's not surprising that factory technology may lag economic growth more in China since China is growing faster than the US.

mc32 10y ago

It's not a symptom of being poor. It's more a symptom of growth transitioning away from being poor but not skipping the pollution stage. They could very well grow with modern technology now that it is available and proven --something countries which industrialized earlier didn't have. Not only technology but the knowledge of the effects. Nowadays people don't experiment with radioactive elements in their basement labs the way people did in the early 20th cent. because we know more about those substances and their effects on health.

ams6110 10y ago

It's also a symptom of corrupt communist governments.