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Show HN: AutoMicroFarm Is Ready for Shipping
- david-given 10y agoSee also https://automicrofarm.com https://automicrofarm.com.
- ph0rque 10y agoHi HN, Andrew here. I'm the AutoMicroFarm founder. Really happy to finally have this prototype finished, and available. Let me know if you have any questions!
- justusw 10y agoThat looks like an amazing concept! I especially dig the wading pool improvisation. Ideally I would like to have something like this for indoors. Are there any plans to offer a non-backyard version at some point in the future?
- ph0rque 10y agoThanks! There are a lot of indoor options available, but they are pretty small in size, and might produce a salad a week at the most. That's really not AutoMicroFarm's vision. If you are thinking something that's larger in size, that's a possibility in the future. AutoMicroFarm would have to solve the issue of the weight (the water and sand in the current system are about 1.5 tons). Also, the cost of the LED lighting would have to come down before it is affordable.
- JPKab 10y agoI'm being 100% serious here: Have you thought about the market for the smaller one being more oriented towards cannabis rather than vegetables? With Colorado and Washington state (and I believe Alaska) now allowing homeowners to legally grow cannabis, I think a smaller version of this product for indoor use would have a market. It doesn't have to produce a large yield, and people would really like the aesthetic aspect of a closed cycle with fish involved.
- ph0rque 10y agoYes, that gets brought up a lot. There's a site dedicated to cannabis aquaponics: http://www.potentponics.com/ http://www.potentponics.com/
- tgokh 10y agoI don't know any of the details, but a pizza place in my town has an indoor aquaponic setup in their restaurant growing herbs. Edit: http://www.pompieripizza.com/Pompieri_Pizza/Fish_Tanks.html http://www.pompieripizza.com/Pompieri_Pizza/Fish_Tanks.html
- ec109685 10y agoHopefully you can partner with installers in metros such as the Bay Area who can help less industrious folks get up and running. Amazing what a difference that decking makes :)
- bluegene 10y agoHow does this work in winter?
- ph0rque 10y agoYou would need to either locate it in a greenhouse, or just shut it down over the winter by harvesting fish and plants, and letting the water drain away instead of into the fish tank.
- Bedon292 10y agoI was coming here to ask that. If this were in some sort of greenhouse would this be sustainable for years at a time, or is it more designed to be something you start up each spring? Also, may have missed it, but do you plant the seeds right into the sand or sprout them first somewhere else? (I know basically nothing about gardening, sorry) Great idea, and very tempting when I get into a new house.
- ph0rque 10y agoYes, my vision is for every house to have a food-grow room, just like most houses had root cellars ~100 years ago. I really like Ceres greenhouses (http://www.ceresgs.com/ http://www.ceresgs.com/), as well as Open Building Institute's aquaponic greenhouse (http://openbuildinginstitute.org/buildings/#greenhouse http://openbuildinginstitute.org/buildings/#greenhouse). The easiest way to get started is by planting the seeds into the sand, just push them in with your finger. I did plant sprouts in about half of each veggie bed, but I had to wash dirt off their roots, which really put them into shock.
- Bedon292 10y agoThose are some amazing links. Definitely some inspiration for the future. I could definitely see this getting tied into a system like in the second link, with compost and chickens, and all that.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 10y ago
- rhaps0dy 10y agoHow many of these would you need to produce enough food for one adult? What kind of fish should you grow, and how long do they take to be adults and edible? Your project is very cool, I think you're doing an amazing job. Keep it up!
- ph0rque 10y agoIf you eat mostly plants, two of these systems will provide 90%+ of your food (assuming you have a greenhouse to put it in, or live in a place that stays warm year-round). The fastest-growing fish used for aquaponics is tilapia, which can reach maturity in six months. But, they require for the water temperature to stay above 60F (15C), and really prefer water above 85F (30C). Other fish take 9 or more months to mature. Thanks!
- juliangoldsmith 10y ago>If you eat mostly plants, two of these systems will provide 90%+ of your food What numbers are you basing this on? That is, do you have an estimated yield in lbs. for what one system can produce?
- ph0rque 10y agoMy initial proof-of-concept produced 10 lbs/square foot annually, not counting the fish. This system should be more productive, but only time will tell. If this system has similar levels of productivity, it would produce 360 lbs annually, so two systems get you 2 lbs of food daily.
- jsilence 10y agoApart from the aspect that I consider this design to be flawed, I can give you some rough estimates on yield. A sound stocking density for tilapia would be around 50-60 kg/m3. If you keep temperatures high (28-30°C) you can have two harvests in one year. Tilapia has approximately 40% filet, so you can produce roundabout 50kg of edible fish fillet in one cubic meter fish tank. With such a fish tank you can approximately produce nutrients for ten square meters of grow beds. A realistic estimate for the yield would be 10kg of produce per square meter per year, maybe a little higher if you take good care of the system. So that would give you 100-150 kg of produce per year with a 16sqm green house, a one cubic meter fish tank and ten sqm grow beds. The recommended consumption of produce is 100-150 kg per year. So your system could cover your produce consumption for one person. You still need carbohydrates (grains) and oil (rape seeds and sun flower and such) and protein. The fish will not cover your protein demand. You'll also have to keep in mind that depending on how you run the system you'll have a lot of fish twice a year. Staggered production is not possible in one smallish fish tank.
- mikeash 10y agoThis looks really neat. I wish I had a yard to put it in. If I move someday, I'll certainly try to remember this. Can you explain what makes it better than planting a traditional garden? I came away from the page with the impression that it is better, but I'm not entirely sure what makes it so.
- ph0rque 10y agoHere are just a few advantages over a traditional garden: * You get fish * Better yield, due to items mentioned below * The optimal watering cycle, followed by a drain cycle, means the plants get the air, water, and nutrients they need multiple times a day. * The water being reused means you need only 10% of it * Going organic is really easy: just feed the fish organic fish feed * No soil diseases * Virtually no weeds (I’ve picked ~3 weeds over the course of the 1.5 years I ran my initial proof-of-concept prototype) * Minimal maintenance: only need to plant, harvest, prune, and feed the fish
- mikeash 10y agoWonderful, thanks for taking the time to explain!
- mdesq 10y agoI was thrilled to see you're an RTP-based company. I'm on the other side of Raleigh from you, but I shared this with my community and now need to do some measuring to figure out how much grading I'd have to do to install one of these and then figure out what my HOA would say. :) Have you gone through a winter in this area with the unit in a greenhouse? Any reports on how that worked out?
- ph0rque 10y agoWaves Make sure to mention the free installation to your community! (I may limit this to a small initial number of customers, we'll see how it goes). I have an HOA, as well. In our bylaws, we're allowed a garden of 50 square feet without explicit permission, so I didn't apply for an arch. request. But I'd be happy to help any customers apply. My first prototype was in a greenhouse in Cary. I was able to continue growing through the winter, but everything (understandably) grew slower. See my previous blog posts for more detail: http://blog.automicrofarm.com/page/3 http://blog.automicrofarm.com/page/3
- mdesq 10y agoThat's very cool. I'm actually on my HOA board (but the ARC is a delegated function) and know a few people have gardens without any trouble. Incidentally, the first comment I received was about "farmed fish."
- wtracy 10y agoSure, two of them! :-) 1. Are you in California? If so, can you comment on how easy/hard it is to get Tilapia for a setup like this? I know someone living near Campbell who had trouble legally getting any of the Tilapia species that are suitable for aquaculture. The California department of Fish and Wildlife apparently considers most or all Tilapia to be invasive species. (Oddly enough, I see T. buttikoferi in pet stores every now and then, but they're too expensive to eat.) 2. Is using PVC really that bad? I've been in the aquarium hobby for over half my life now, and I can't remember ever seeing a single DIY aquarium plumbing project that didn't use PVC. PVC seems particularly ubiquitous for elbows and fittings--how hard/expensive is it to get PEX fittings at retail?
- jsilence 10y agoPVC-U is just fine for aquaponics. It can be considered food safe. PE is nicer to recycle, but when you have a sound system design you are not going to change and discard pipes very often.
- ph0rque 10y ago1. I'm not in CA, but from what I read it seems like raising tilapia in CA would be legally difficult. You do have other fish choices, such as catfish crappie, perch, and bluegill. 2. I haven't been able to find a lot of hard facts about PVC, other than the fact that it supposedly bad for fish you want to eat eventually. In any case, PEX piping and fittings are readily available online and in Home Depot and Lowes stores.
- daemonk 10y agoI have a pair of pet terrapins. Has anyone tried aquaponics with terrapins? They produce a lot more waste than fish. Perhaps that'll allow for more land-mass for growing?
- JPKab 10y agoI don't know anything about terrapins in particular, but turtles in general carry a ton of potentially dangerous diseases. In many states, turtles are outlawed as pets because their digestive systems are so geared towards incubating bacterial pathogens.
- mdorazio 10y agoWas the kiddie pool chosen specifically for cost? There are a plethora of fiberglass and UV-stabilized PET plastic holding tanks used in the aquaculture business (and rainwater collection systems) that would have much better strength and lower tendency to go brittle over time.
- jacquesm 10y agoAt a guess, because it collapses to almost nothing. The holding tanks are huge (I've used a couple of the 1,000 litre ones) and you can't easily get rid of them when you want to.
- mdorazio 10y agoThey don't really, though. If you try to collapse a kiddie pool it will be permanently damaged due to the stresses on the plastic. They usually ship in a box the same size as the uncollapsed pool. The holding tanks come in all sizes - you can get them the same diameter and depth as a kiddie pool, just obviously thicker and heavier since they're actually designed to hold the weight of water without deforming.
- ph0rque 10y agoYes, the biggest consideration was cost, and the lack of any potentially harmful plastics, such as phthalates and bisphenols (such as BPA).
- BadCookie 10y agoHow much more would it cost to use something that's at least a solid color (preferably green/black/brown)? The obvious kiddie pool factor is a big enough turn off for a lot of people that fixing it might be worth raising the price point. Even the wooden enclosure doesn't hide the color and print on the pool.
- ph0rque 10y agoThe cost is ~$100 more per container (from what I could find), so the whole system ends up costing $300 more, at least. Is it worth the color change?
- codingdave 10y agoAs someone who gardens, and has a little 3 acre homestead, this is not something I would go for in its current state... but there are improvements that could get me there: 1) I understand buying off the shelf parts for your prototype. But spending hundreds of dollars to be shipped parts I could have bought myself is just adding more middle-men into the supply chain. At this point, just sell the parts list and plans for $20. And when you have built parts with ease of assembly in mind, so this is 5x easier than DIY with parts from home depot... THEN sell the kit. 2) You need to share data of how much water is needed on an ongoing basis, in different climates. People in Arizona with limited water supplies might not have the same resources to put in, for example. 3) You need to talk specifically about what plants work well, what the yields are,in different climates and growing zones, and recommend planting strategies for different locations.
- ph0rque 10y agoThanks for the feedback! 1. In talking to other aquaponics businesses, I've heard that people are not very excited about paying for a manual/plans. If you're serious about this, let me know and I can email you a payment link :) 2. Aquaponics in general only uses ~10% of the water a normal garden, with the only water losses being evaporation and plant transpiration (and what water is incorporated into the plants themselves). 3. This is a good point. The plants that normally grow well in your garden will grow well in aquaponics, with a few extreme exceptions. For example, you would not want to grow blueberries, since they prefer a low pH.
- robotmlg 10y agoWhat about the soil? I'm no botanist, but does the fact that you're using sand affect the types of plants that grow well?
- ph0rque 10y agoThe whole premise of aquaponics is that you don't need soil, just something that holds the roots in place and allows fish waste to be converted to plant fertilizer by the bacteria.
- jacquesm 10y agoFantastic, really nice to see this done from start to finish. Will this ship to Europe?
- ph0rque 10y agoThanks! I'm just focusing on the US market for now. Although I'm sure all the parts (or their equivalents) are available in Europe.
- prawn 10y agoIf many components are typically available in hardware stores, have you looked at dropshipping in some way from hardware stores local to each buyer? You could ship out instructions and any exotic pieces from a central spot, plus the bulk of things from local stores?
- gravypod 10y agoWell hell, there is definitely room for profit on this system! A few of the YouTubers I like have built systems like this. One of the better systems was from MrTeslonian [0]. Hope you get people to buy this! [0] - https://youtu.be/VaY5hMxTExQ https://youtu.be/VaY5hMxTExQ
- ph0rque 10y agoThat looks similar to a barrelponics system. That was my first, proof-of-concept prototype. It cost me $700 and 50 hours of work, and had a growing area of ~9 square feet. I'm sure you could get the system cheaper if you found the parts for sale, or already have them. You could also build it faster if you're really handy, have the experience, and don't make any mistakes.
- netinstructions 10y agoWhat a cool idea! I was pretty surprised how much the wooden enclosure really improved its appearance.
- ph0rque 10y agoYes, me too! My wife also really liked it, saying how the enclosure finally made her not ashamed to tell her friends about it :)
- keenerd 10y agoI presume you need to manually top off the system for evaporation? In rainy weather, is losing nutrients to overflow a problem? Any thoughts to using a 12VDC pump, powered by a solar panel and small battery? (In some places it is illegal to have an extension cord outdoors for months on end.) Would it be easier/cheaper to ship a version that didn't include the kiddie pools or sand, with the expectation that someone could source those bulky items themselves?
- ph0rque 10y agoYes, you would need to top off in times of little rain. Unless you have a ton of rain, I don't see losing the nutrients as a problem. That is something I looked into. For $150-$200, you can buy a kit containing the DC pump, a battery, a solar panel, and a timer. That is something I considered, but I thought it would be simpler to start off with just one offering.
- sbhere 10y agoRealizing this touches several comments made already... - What about pests? Will the fish control mosquito-larvae in the pool? ... and any other bugs that fall in? (Think southeastern US or other places where mosquitos can be a problem.) - What about scavengers? Do the fish bed to be protected from raccoons out suburban/feral cats? - Can you sell sub-kits? For example, I could use your source of kiddie pools and fish, but don't need to buy pex from you when there's a hardware store two miles away... - What about erosion during times of hard precipitation? (Again, most places in the US do get some serious weather multiple times during the growing season.) Seeing my mature plants wash away would be rather frustrating. I dig the idea, from one garden hacker to another, I just have a lot of questions ... and as I said: I'm not interested in a full kit, but a sub-kit with research would be really useful.
- ph0rque 10y agoThanks for your comments! - In my experience, the fish do a very good job of eating any mosquito larvae and other insects that happen to fall into the pool. - Depending on how you would want to set up the AutoMicroFarm, there would be plenty of hiding places for the fish. In my setup, I only see the fish come out of hiding when I feed them. But, if this is still a concern, you could add a simple net to deter predators. - I thought about selling just certain parts, but that adds too much complexity. If you're serious about wanting just certain parts, email me and I'll help you out. - We've had several hard rains and high winds, and I haven't seen any significant erosion... maybe a few grains of sand that got washed out, but that's it. The plant roots are really good about holding on to the sand. :)
- ph0rque 10y agoJust talked to someone who also says raccoons will be a problem. I guess the best solution would be to have a lid/cover for your fish tank.
- wtracy 10y agoIf there are raccoons in your area, you really want netting over the pond. The standard advice for preventing fish loss to raccoons without using netting is: the water must be at least three feet deep (any less than that, and the raccoons will hang from the edge by their hind legs and grab sleeping fish off the bottom) and you MUST NOT train your fish to surface near the edge of the pond (fish have trouble distinguishing the sound of human footsteps from the sound of raccoon footsteps). Any food should be thrown into the pond at least three feet away from the pond edge. Naturally, that advice isn't very helpful for a pond six feet or less in diameter.
- michaelmior 10y agoWow, that was quick! After following this project for a few years it's nice to see this finally ready :)
- Animats 10y ago"Pays for itself in six months" with what value attached to the labor involved?
- ZenoArrow 10y agoDo you really attach a dollar value to activities you do in your spare time?
- Animats 10y agoIt's a system for producing food. How much does that food really cost?
- ZenoArrow 10y agoHowever much the store you buy it from sells it for. Stores don't sell at the cost of raw materials, so the argument you can discount the cost of labour (and the cost of processing, transport and storage for that matter) doesn't really make much sense.
- ph0rque 10y agoDo you mean the initial set up, or the ongoing maintenance? Edit: I don't have an exact answer for you, but assuming you can get the system set up for less than $350 (either yourself, or by hiring an installer), that statement is true. Also, the maintenance time is similar to what you would spend going to the store to buy the plants/fish.
- tmoullet 10y agoI just saw that this system went on sale recently too: https://farmbot.io/ https://farmbot.io/ It would be way cool to collab and create an AutoMicroFarmBot. What features of the AMF are you planning for the next iteration/2.0?
- ph0rque 10y agoYup, I'm in touch with Rory of FarmBot. I would really like to solve the hassle of how heavy and inconvenient sand is, perhaps by replacing it with e.g. mushroom media: http://blog.automicrofarm.com/post/142436464771/mushroom-media-adventures http://blog.automicrofarm.com/post/142436464771/mushroom-med.... But, first things first :)
- tmoullet 10y agoWhy did you decide on a two tiered system? I've seen aquaponic setups where the farmers are using a floating medium above the fish pool.
- ph0rque 10y agoIt's hard to find a 12" (30cm) deep medium that would allow for fruiting plants such as tomatoes, be lighter than water, and not just be a support structure such as polyurethane foam (i.e. not having roots grow through it).
- arijun 10y agoAquaponics has always interested me, and as an alpha product this looks pretty neat! A few questions: 1) I've heard that you don't really save money on the fish side after you take into account feed and labor. Would you characterize that as true? 2) What are we talking about in terms of maintenance time/costs? 3) How high is the risk of mold or some disease getting in your system, considering your fairly inexperienced target user base?
- ph0rque 10y ago1. This may be true with aquaculture, but in backyard-sized aquaponics, where you're not trying to breed fish, I feel there's really not that much labor involved. And the feed not only feeds the fish, it's later re-used as fertilizer for plants. If you account for both fish and plant production, you can definitely save money. 2. Maintenance time is minimal: I spent 15 minutes a day on my initial prototype, and that was mostly to feed the fish and gather the harvest, once it got going. Maintenance costs are really minimal: fish feed and seeds come out to maybe $20-30 annually. 3. I've never had a problem with mold, since the water always drains (after flooding). There is always the chance that you'll get some kind of pest or disease on your fish/plants, I've had those pests but companion planting can minimize that risk (something I'll help my customers with).
- gricardo99 10y agoVery cool concept. I would like a bit more information on the following: 1) What kind of fish are recommended/suitable? 2) Where do you get the fish? I assume most pet stores don't sell fish to raise for food. 3) What are the fish food options? Again, I assume pet stores don't carry the required feed. Edit: A few more fish related questions: Do you have to stick to one type of fish at a time? How many fish can your kit support at one time? I'm sure that's species dependent, so perhaps some examples?
- ph0rque 10y ago1. Tilapia, perch, and catfish are popular. I have catfish in mine. You just have to match the temperature requirements to your climate/area. 2. You would get the fish at a fish hatchery, there should be one near you. This is something I find out for my customers. You can also buy fish online, but the overnight shipping makes it a bit expensive. 3. You can buy fish food online, or at a hatchery, or e.g. Tractor Supply. 4. The thing about different fish species (or even same species but substantially different sizes) is that if a fish fits inside a bigger fish's mouth, that bigger fish will try to eat it, unless the smaller fish has somewhere to hide, like aquatic vegetation. This is something I will be experimenting with more.
- andrewwhartion 10y agoIf this type of thing piques you interest, there is a vibrant aquaponics community with many forums eg. [1] and designs using all sorts of off-the-shelf parts. IBCs and blue plastic drums are generally the "go to' solution [2] as they're made from HDPE, although some are made from plastics that are not considered food safe as they use mould release agents during the manufacturing process which are toxic (no reference for this at the moment, sorry). Just be aware that generally you need A LOT more grow bed area than you would think to be able to efficiently use the fish tank volume. You can pack a lot of happy fish into a given volume of water. Also, the general consensus is to use course gravel (20mm) rather than sand, as sand can quickly become blocked with organic material. [1] http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/ http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/forum/ [2] http://ibcofaquaponics.com/ http://ibcofaquaponics.com/ [EDIT] Also, you'll want to keep the sunlight off the fish tank, because once the nitrogen level starts to rise [3], the algae will go nuts in there. I learned this the hard way. [3] http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/information/the-nitrogen-cycle/ http://www.backyardaquaponics.com/information/the-nitrogen-c...
- ph0rque 10y agoI realize the gravel vs. sand debate is a bit contentious, but I haven't had any blockage in the two months I have been running the system, despite claims of that the sand will become clogged within hours or days. In fact, the sand media was the original aquaponics design. References: http://iavs.info/ http://iavs.info/ http://aquaponicsnation.com/forums/topic/9039-integrated-aquavegeculture-system-iavs/ http://aquaponicsnation.com/forums/topic/9039-integrated-aqu...
- andrewwhartion 10y agoThat's good to hear you've been having success with sand. I'd love to hear how it's going after 12 months, because sand is certainly easier to work with than course gravel, which can be difficult to plant seedlings into, based on my own experience.
- ph0rque 10y ago
- pw 10y agoIt's really exciting that YC Fellowship is funding stuff like this (that is, stuff that is truly very early-stage and experimental).
- joshstaiger 10y agoVery cool! I'll be keeping an eye on this. This year I've been experimenting with these DIY self-watering grow containers: http://earthtainer.tomatofest.com/pdfs/EarthTainer-Construction-Guide.pdf http://earthtainer.tomatofest.com/pdfs/EarthTainer-Construct... Very little maintenance after the initial assembly and planting, and I've had pretty great results so far. I've heard about aquaponics before, but never dug into it. I'd be interested in hearing about its advantages over a (presumably less involved) traditional container setup like mine.
- ph0rque 10y agoHey Josh, the advantages are similar as compared to a garden, except the containers solve some of the problems (such as optimal watering). Probably the biggest advantage is you get fish as part of your harvest.
- jsilence 10y ago* Sand is not a good substrate for plants. Too fine - aeration problems; surface to volume ratio not good. Anaerobic zones will form. Denitrification with odor will stress plants and fishes. * No dedicated biofilter. Nitrification bacteria will form and live on the sand. Tight coupling between fsh tank and grow beds. No way to decouple when one or the other has to be maintained. * Fine mesh preventing the sand to get into the fish tank will clogg with detritus. * Grow beds will clogg with detritus after approximately one season. * No sump tank. Water level in the fish tank will vary a lot. Fish don't like that. Stocking density will have to be low to aleviate this. * Too much sun on the fish tank. Most fish species don't like this and algae will form rapidly. Please do not _sell_ aquaponic designs like this one. I'm doing aquaponics since 2012 and I'm currently working in aquaponic research for a university.
- nkurz 10y agoSand is not a good substrate for plants. What's a better inexpensive substrate? I've been finding Diatomaceous Earth (sold as kitty litter or oil absorbent) to be great for starting seedlings, but it's more expensive than desirable for filling a large volume. Detailed thread here: http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=22329 http://www.tomatoville.com/showthread.php?t=22329
- spiderfarmer 10y agohttp://www.grodan.nl/oplossingen/groenteteelt+producten/grotop+master http://www.grodan.nl/oplossingen/groenteteelt+producten/grot... Used in Dutch greenhouses for the last 20 years or so.
- jsilence 10y agoMost of the grodan producs are made from rock wool. From a plant perspective it is a very good substrate, good capilarity, inert, stable. But it is not compostable and recyclable. For a classical ebb and flow grow bed, the rock wool fibers are too fine grained.
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