7 ms·

Wouldn't be any surprise if Tim Peake turns out to be Britain's first and last official astronaut.

by pieter1976 10y ago

djaychela 10y ago
Indeed. Having spoken to a fair few "out" voters in the last week or so, none of them seem to have thought of the wider implications of an out vote other than one or two narrow issues they have concentrated on. One voted out because there have been two EU regulations which he sees as unfairly damaging his business - one about being unable to sell electronics with a high lead content, the other to do with the deactivation of firearms. Nothing else mattered to him, despite being completely unable to articulate what "out" actually meant. Same goes for all the others - they don't seem to have thought through the practical implications of their actions, other than "well, we won't have to put up with those EU *s" any more. The implications, purely from a paperwork point of view, seem immense. While there may be a strong, independent future for the UK (or, more likely in the future, England and Wales), it won't come without some considerable cost in areas that people didn't think about for a second. I'm staggered that the "remain" campaign made such a bad job of pointing all these issues out.
- ZeroGravitas 10y ago
  Cameron's strategy was to claim that he was going to leave, then negotiate a brilliant deal, then campaign to stay on the basis of those changes. This frankly idiotic approach rather undermines any attempt to point out the reality of leaving, since you have to suddenly discover all the unfortunate practicalities half-way through the process. He probably also thought he was a great politician, not realising that he only won his elections due to mass media propaganda being on his side[1] (even then he didn't win in any convincing manner). With them taking the contrary position on Brexit, and having no compunction when it comes to lying, smearing the Bank of England, or whipping up hysteria about foreigners, he was in deep trouble (and like Boris, it's interesting to speculate as to whether the media actually wanted to win this vote or were just in it for political street cred by taking that stance). [1] Note how he literally campaigned to leave if he didn't get concessions (and everyone knew this was pretend), then warned about utter catastrophe if we did leave and yet he's a great statesman as he stands down (which he also promised not to do). Meanwhile Corbyn is hounded for not being sufficiently positive in his campaigning and it's working class Labour voters that get the blame, not the rich Tories who voted overwhelmingly to leave. It's utterly bizarre, yet accepted as normal. Just like the Sun attacked people who questioned the Iraq War as traitors, and even provided a dart board with their faces on it so you could throw things at them, and now years later we get confirmation that they were all correct.
  - Zenst 10y ago
    Cameron initially went to the EU for reform and with that changing aspects of the EU for all members. That not only did not happen and still needed but he in effect got palmed of with a special deal to appease the UK. But his initial remit and outline was to seek reform of the EU, not some special UK only back-hander. UK leaving EU now and EU still in need of reform and currently they seem to still be going in the wrong direction and widening public discontent with them across Europe. The whole ignoring the people over companies as case of no individual wants TTIP, not one I have met. THis and any concerns are demonised and labeled so they can be dismissed, has driven the EU to become unpopular with an ever increasing populus it purports to serve. AS for the media, well in todays times politics panders to the media and has changed in a way that is not nice too see and no offence to America, politics in Europe has become more American. more about how you look and come across more than the content of the words. But when democracy for the people revolves around binary choices and an X in a box every 4-5 years from a limited choice then you have to wonder if that needs reform as people are afforded more of a say democratically in talent shows upon TV than political elections. But like the plane industry the UK kind of stepped back in so many area's of space after WW2 due to the amount of debt incurred in that time.
    - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
      TTIP is a valid EU-related concern if you live in a country that would reject TTIP if it wasn't part of the EU. This doesn't apply to the UK, where the current and probably future governments would happily sign it in normal times, and will be much weaker when negotiating now, so even a hypothetical anti-TTIP goverment would probably have it foisted upon them. Everything is relative, so one persons's too-corporate EU is another person's too-socialist EU. Anyone in the UK who voted out of the EU because they were worried about corporations having too much influence is in for a rude awakening as the reality of brexit sinks in.
      - Zenst 10y ago
        Its the aspect that no individual cares for TTIP and many actively against it. That does highlight disparity in communication by the EU and the people and was the point that was being made. Your right that many governments will sign it away happily and again only back how out of touch many governments in countries as well as the EU collective are with the people. May be they need to communicate more about matters as currently what people do know and even those who looked deeper into it that it was not good for them overall. Easier when trade deals were more focused and case of we sell you this and you sell us that and we will balance out import tariff's and save grief and paperwork. Today trade deals seem to want to be a catch everything in one hit style documents and run to encyclopedia style lengths that the ability to game them or abuse them is more open as more of them. After all documents written by humans just as prone to bugs as software when you get into large tomes as most trade deals are these days. Which for me is sadly like trying to design a shoe for everybody no matter that people are different sizes and needs of there footwear. People moot rude awakening but seriously brexit has become the go to blame scapegoat for lots. But when the global economy loses on stock markets more than the UK's total economy for a year in one day, then you know it is far removed from reality and all speculation driven as markets are these days. Indeed somebody sells lots of something they can create the problem that was the reason for them selling and somewhat self-fulfilling. Only come 10 years time can we truly get a gauge of change as by then things would of changed and be no change for least 2 years from now. Indeed Europe as a collective has too many weak links members wise and when just 4 of its members were net contributors into it with the other staking more out than paid in, and the UK one of them, then is it a bad thing for the UK, probably not at all once the market FUD and settles down and plans outlined and formalised as currently it is somewhat under-pant gnomes: 1) Referendum 2) ?????????? 3) Profit with us at stage two currently. So can accept the markets having fun. Indeed whatever happens it is those who get commissions (brokers) that always win out. But corporations issue with EU is that they have paid lobbyists at the MEP's in Brussels all the time that the MEP's saturated time wise by them and the public interaction with MEP's is not great at all and indeed, many cases not as accessible. This along with Brussels centric and UK being Island does remove the level of access many would expect and still the EU does not have its own portal for communications to engage the people in a two way process. But so many things that could be improved it is what I call: QWERTY politics and any other arrangement would work out more efficiently, just everybody stuck with what seems to work, even if the most inefficient form. Alas today, that lack of change creates divides. But that is equally a global issue in many countries more than many realise. We live in interesting times, but heck, when is it not interesting.
- csydas 10y ago
  Not that I fully advocate for what Heinlein believed when he wrote Starship troopers, but with the US election and the Brexit vote, I found some of the quotes pertinent to the current way people approach voting and democracy. >"...those noble experiments failed because the people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted . . . and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears.” Now, Heinlein argued for a restrictive vote based on civil service, perhaps best exemplified by another quote from the book “Citizenship is an attitude, a state of mind, an emotional conviction that the whole is greater than the part . . . and that the part should be humbly proud to sacrifice itself that the whole may live.” Despite his strong libertarian beliefs, there wasn't really much in terms of traditional politics that Heinlein promoted as he wrote this, aside from the fact that citizens should work to better their country. While I don't think restricting the vote is the right answer, I do think this mentality of a full citizen is probably a good one for people to have before they vote. Not an intelligence test, not even an issues test (though also probably an okay idea), but instead just can you be relied on to be thinking about someone besides yourself. Heinlein doesn't flesh this out much further than "man it'd be great if we cared more for our nation", and I am not smart enough to say what this looks like apolitically either, but it's a nice dream.
  - AnonymousPlanet 10y ago
    Heinlein's attitude towards citizenship in Starship Troopers very much reminded me of the attitude of the Prussian society regarding proper membership. In that mindset, only military discipline and a readiness for sacrifice formed a proper human being who would be a worthwhile member of society. This attitude can be seen as the Achilles' heel of humanism: every human is equal until you decide that some people just aren't human enough. I believe that this is how a country once championing humanism could take enlightenment (rationalization) and industrialization to such horrible conclusions. Whenever considering a separation between full citizen and not-yet citizen, please keep this in mind.
    - csydas 10y ago
      I agree with both this and the above comment, in that I see this ideal as a dream at best, which is why as enticing as his views are, I can't fully say "yes, this is worth trying", especially since Heinlein's characters tend to be larger than life where the public just sort of accepts them for whatever reason. So, please do understand in no way do I advocate for the actual separation. I think it'd be disastrous and used as a tool of oppression more than anything, despite my admiration of it in the initial post.
- allendoerfer 10y ago
  I think some version of this is the single biggest issue of our time involving society or really any group of people with a problem. Problems are getting more complex, societies are getting more informed and democratic, thereby exposing people to more and more problems. People are overwhelmed and have a shorter attention span for each issue. They feel like everything is getting worse, even though it really stays mostly the same. Easy and fast answers win, you can say whatever you want, there is no time for corrections, because everyone has moved on to the next issue.
- 7952 10y ago
  The regulation element is funny because people blithely assume that changes will always be to ease restrictions. But a significant proportion of the population will reasonably think like me that restricting lead content is just common sense. Brexit gives an oppurtunity to have more restrictive regulation at some point in the future. And the current government is suprisingly interventionist on many buisness issues. The EU neatly made various issues non-controversial and that may change. Hopefully we can finally reduce fishing to sustainable levels and ban cancer causing pesticides!
  - Malarkey73 10y ago
    Manufacturers will still abide by EU regulations. Otherwise their products won't be able to sell abroad. The UK government just won't have any input - that's a REAL loss of sovereignty.
    - steve19 10y ago
      No, that is called trade. Likewise EU exporters will have to abide by British regulations (without any input) if they want to sell products to Britain. The UK does not cede sovereignty to China when they sell China widgets built to Chinese specifications.
      - mrow84 10y ago
        How about if the UK had some democratic control over regulations in China, and then gave that control up. Would that be ceding sovereignty? Given that sovereignty is fairly synonymous with control, it seems difficult to argue that giving up control is not a loss of sovereignty.
        7952 10y ago
        At this point talk of "sovereignty" turns everything into an argument over semantics. Better to consider the effect on individual rights and liberty. That is what is completely missing from our national debate.
- Chris2048 10y ago
  > being completely unable to articulate what "out" actually meant Only those with an omniscient knowledge of the markets, or possibly a degree in economics, should vote? If this is a mess to get out of, we shouldn't of gotten into it in the first place. The longer we'd of been in the EU, the harder to leave. Right now, it's painful to leave the EU - in the future it may be economy-ending - at least we've paused asset stripping before the assets run out. Saying "but there's no exit plan" is lame when that was on purpose - the same way websites make it easy to sign up, but make you you call them to close an account.
  - unfamiliar 10y ago
    >Only those with an omniscient knowledge of the markets, or possibly a degree in economics, should vote? Hyperbole aside, on an issue of this importance and magnitude, yes you should have an pretty solid idea about what you are voting on. If you can't be an expert yourself, you should at least figure out how to understand the main points an expert makes. If you can't do that you shouldn't vote, because you have no idea what you're talking about and no way to judge the consequences.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Some issues of right and wrong don't need expertise in the consequences. E.g. "Burning hobos for fuel would be CO2 neutral. But it will have an effect on prices, and perhaps change stock fund values for pensioners. Hm, what should we do?"
    - Chris2048 10y ago
      How does a non-expert recognise an expert with so many claiming expertise? > If you can't do that you shouldn't vote, because you have no idea what you're talking about and no way to judge the consequences. Why? Can you assume, then, that only those who do know the consequences will vote instead? Who does know the consequences - experts? Also, who's to decide the importance or magnitude of an issue? Doesn't this mean that the ability to muddy the waters is the power to restrict votes? If we, the great unwashed don't understand the EU, or it's importance, how did our democratic country get into it in the first place? Surely the public understood it as little then? Or should we do what our politicians tell us to? ...
alexhawdon 10y ago
That would be sadly similar to Black Arrow 'R3' in 1971, Britain's first and only successful orbital launch. After that we abandoned the project, the only country to do so after such an achievement.
- AnonymousPlanet 10y ago
  Thanks for mentioning this. I had never heard of it. I love how its display in the London Science Museum reminds me of a Bond movie. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow: > Prior to the cancellation of Black Arrow, NASA had offered to launch British payloads for free; however, this offer was withdrawn following the decision to cancel Black Arrow. Ouch. Sounds like bait and switch.
thudson 10y ago
Helen Sharman was Britain's first astronaut -- she spent seven days on the Mir space station in 1991. Peake is the seventh British astronaut[0]. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_space_programme#British_astronauts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_space_programme#Britis...

Wouldn't be any surprise if Tim Peake turns out to be Britain's first and last official astronaut.

Indeed. Having spoken to a fair few "out" voters in the last week or so, none of them seem to have thought of the wider implications of an out vote other than one or two narrow issues they have concentrated on. One voted out because there have been two EU regulations which he sees as unfairly damaging his business - one about being unable to sell electronics with a high lead content, the other to do with the deactivation of firearms. Nothing else mattered to him, despite being completely unable to articulate what "out" actually meant. Same goes for all the others - they don't seem to have thought through the practical implications of their actions, other than "well, we won't have to put up with those EU *s" any more. The implications, purely from a paperwork point of view, seem immense. While there may be a strong, independent future for the UK (or, more likely in the future, England and Wales), it won't come without some considerable cost in areas that people didn't think about for a second. I'm staggered that the "remain" campaign made such a bad job of pointing all these issues out.

ZeroGravitas 10y ago
Cameron's strategy was to claim that he was going to leave, then negotiate a brilliant deal, then campaign to stay on the basis of those changes. This frankly idiotic approach rather undermines any attempt to point out the reality of leaving, since you have to suddenly discover all the unfortunate practicalities half-way through the process. He probably also thought he was a great politician, not realising that he only won his elections due to mass media propaganda being on his side[1] (even then he didn't win in any convincing manner). With them taking the contrary position on Brexit, and having no compunction when it comes to lying, smearing the Bank of England, or whipping up hysteria about foreigners, he was in deep trouble (and like Boris, it's interesting to speculate as to whether the media actually wanted to win this vote or were just in it for political street cred by taking that stance). [1] Note how he literally campaigned to leave if he didn't get concessions (and everyone knew this was pretend), then warned about utter catastrophe if we did leave and yet he's a great statesman as he stands down (which he also promised not to do). Meanwhile Corbyn is hounded for not being sufficiently positive in his campaigning and it's working class Labour voters that get the blame, not the rich Tories who voted overwhelmingly to leave. It's utterly bizarre, yet accepted as normal. Just like the Sun attacked people who questioned the Iraq War as traitors, and even provided a dart board with their faces on it so you could throw things at them, and now years later we get confirmation that they were all correct.
- Zenst 10y ago
  Cameron initially went to the EU for reform and with that changing aspects of the EU for all members. That not only did not happen and still needed but he in effect got palmed of with a special deal to appease the UK. But his initial remit and outline was to seek reform of the EU, not some special UK only back-hander. UK leaving EU now and EU still in need of reform and currently they seem to still be going in the wrong direction and widening public discontent with them across Europe. The whole ignoring the people over companies as case of no individual wants TTIP, not one I have met. THis and any concerns are demonised and labeled so they can be dismissed, has driven the EU to become unpopular with an ever increasing populus it purports to serve. AS for the media, well in todays times politics panders to the media and has changed in a way that is not nice too see and no offence to America, politics in Europe has become more American. more about how you look and come across more than the content of the words. But when democracy for the people revolves around binary choices and an X in a box every 4-5 years from a limited choice then you have to wonder if that needs reform as people are afforded more of a say democratically in talent shows upon TV than political elections. But like the plane industry the UK kind of stepped back in so many area's of space after WW2 due to the amount of debt incurred in that time.
  - ZeroGravitas 10y ago
    TTIP is a valid EU-related concern if you live in a country that would reject TTIP if it wasn't part of the EU. This doesn't apply to the UK, where the current and probably future governments would happily sign it in normal times, and will be much weaker when negotiating now, so even a hypothetical anti-TTIP goverment would probably have it foisted upon them. Everything is relative, so one persons's too-corporate EU is another person's too-socialist EU. Anyone in the UK who voted out of the EU because they were worried about corporations having too much influence is in for a rude awakening as the reality of brexit sinks in.
    - Zenst 10y ago
      Its the aspect that no individual cares for TTIP and many actively against it. That does highlight disparity in communication by the EU and the people and was the point that was being made. Your right that many governments will sign it away happily and again only back how out of touch many governments in countries as well as the EU collective are with the people. May be they need to communicate more about matters as currently what people do know and even those who looked deeper into it that it was not good for them overall. Easier when trade deals were more focused and case of we sell you this and you sell us that and we will balance out import tariff's and save grief and paperwork. Today trade deals seem to want to be a catch everything in one hit style documents and run to encyclopedia style lengths that the ability to game them or abuse them is more open as more of them. After all documents written by humans just as prone to bugs as software when you get into large tomes as most trade deals are these days. Which for me is sadly like trying to design a shoe for everybody no matter that people are different sizes and needs of there footwear. People moot rude awakening but seriously brexit has become the go to blame scapegoat for lots. But when the global economy loses on stock markets more than the UK's total economy for a year in one day, then you know it is far removed from reality and all speculation driven as markets are these days. Indeed somebody sells lots of something they can create the problem that was the reason for them selling and somewhat self-fulfilling. Only come 10 years time can we truly get a gauge of change as by then things would of changed and be no change for least 2 years from now. Indeed Europe as a collective has too many weak links members wise and when just 4 of its members were net contributors into it with the other staking more out than paid in, and the UK one of them, then is it a bad thing for the UK, probably not at all once the market FUD and settles down and plans outlined and formalised as currently it is somewhat under-pant gnomes: 1) Referendum 2) ?????????? 3) Profit with us at stage two currently. So can accept the markets having fun. Indeed whatever happens it is those who get commissions (brokers) that always win out. But corporations issue with EU is that they have paid lobbyists at the MEP's in Brussels all the time that the MEP's saturated time wise by them and the public interaction with MEP's is not great at all and indeed, many cases not as accessible. This along with Brussels centric and UK being Island does remove the level of access many would expect and still the EU does not have its own portal for communications to engage the people in a two way process. But so many things that could be improved it is what I call: QWERTY politics and any other arrangement would work out more efficiently, just everybody stuck with what seems to work, even if the most inefficient form. Alas today, that lack of change creates divides. But that is equally a global issue in many countries more than many realise. We live in interesting times, but heck, when is it not interesting.
csydas 10y ago
Not that I fully advocate for what Heinlein believed when he wrote Starship troopers, but with the US election and the Brexit vote, I found some of the quotes pertinent to the current way people approach voting and democracy. >"...those noble experiments failed because the people had been led to believe that they could simply vote for whatever they wanted . . . and get it, without toil, without sweat, without tears.” Now, Heinlein argued for a restrictive vote based on civil service, perhaps best exemplified by another quote from the book “Citizenship is an attitude, a state of mind, an emotional conviction that the whole is greater than the part . . . and that the part should be humbly proud to sacrifice itself that the whole may live.” Despite his strong libertarian beliefs, there wasn't really much in terms of traditional politics that Heinlein promoted as he wrote this, aside from the fact that citizens should work to better their country. While I don't think restricting the vote is the right answer, I do think this mentality of a full citizen is probably a good one for people to have before they vote. Not an intelligence test, not even an issues test (though also probably an okay idea), but instead just can you be relied on to be thinking about someone besides yourself. Heinlein doesn't flesh this out much further than "man it'd be great if we cared more for our nation", and I am not smart enough to say what this looks like apolitically either, but it's a nice dream.
- AnonymousPlanet 10y ago
  Heinlein's attitude towards citizenship in Starship Troopers very much reminded me of the attitude of the Prussian society regarding proper membership. In that mindset, only military discipline and a readiness for sacrifice formed a proper human being who would be a worthwhile member of society. This attitude can be seen as the Achilles' heel of humanism: every human is equal until you decide that some people just aren't human enough. I believe that this is how a country once championing humanism could take enlightenment (rationalization) and industrialization to such horrible conclusions. Whenever considering a separation between full citizen and not-yet citizen, please keep this in mind.
  - csydas 10y ago
    I agree with both this and the above comment, in that I see this ideal as a dream at best, which is why as enticing as his views are, I can't fully say "yes, this is worth trying", especially since Heinlein's characters tend to be larger than life where the public just sort of accepts them for whatever reason. So, please do understand in no way do I advocate for the actual separation. I think it'd be disastrous and used as a tool of oppression more than anything, despite my admiration of it in the initial post.
allendoerfer 10y ago
I think some version of this is the single biggest issue of our time involving society or really any group of people with a problem. Problems are getting more complex, societies are getting more informed and democratic, thereby exposing people to more and more problems. People are overwhelmed and have a shorter attention span for each issue. They feel like everything is getting worse, even though it really stays mostly the same. Easy and fast answers win, you can say whatever you want, there is no time for corrections, because everyone has moved on to the next issue.
7952 10y ago
The regulation element is funny because people blithely assume that changes will always be to ease restrictions. But a significant proportion of the population will reasonably think like me that restricting lead content is just common sense. Brexit gives an oppurtunity to have more restrictive regulation at some point in the future. And the current government is suprisingly interventionist on many buisness issues. The EU neatly made various issues non-controversial and that may change. Hopefully we can finally reduce fishing to sustainable levels and ban cancer causing pesticides!
- Malarkey73 10y ago
  Manufacturers will still abide by EU regulations. Otherwise their products won't be able to sell abroad. The UK government just won't have any input - that's a REAL loss of sovereignty.
  - steve19 10y ago
    No, that is called trade. Likewise EU exporters will have to abide by British regulations (without any input) if they want to sell products to Britain. The UK does not cede sovereignty to China when they sell China widgets built to Chinese specifications.
    - mrow84 10y ago
      How about if the UK had some democratic control over regulations in China, and then gave that control up. Would that be ceding sovereignty? Given that sovereignty is fairly synonymous with control, it seems difficult to argue that giving up control is not a loss of sovereignty.
      - 7952 10y ago
        At this point talk of "sovereignty" turns everything into an argument over semantics. Better to consider the effect on individual rights and liberty. That is what is completely missing from our national debate.
Chris2048 10y ago
> being completely unable to articulate what "out" actually meant Only those with an omniscient knowledge of the markets, or possibly a degree in economics, should vote? If this is a mess to get out of, we shouldn't of gotten into it in the first place. The longer we'd of been in the EU, the harder to leave. Right now, it's painful to leave the EU - in the future it may be economy-ending - at least we've paused asset stripping before the assets run out. Saying "but there's no exit plan" is lame when that was on purpose - the same way websites make it easy to sign up, but make you you call them to close an account.
- unfamiliar 10y ago
  >Only those with an omniscient knowledge of the markets, or possibly a degree in economics, should vote? Hyperbole aside, on an issue of this importance and magnitude, yes you should have an pretty solid idea about what you are voting on. If you can't be an expert yourself, you should at least figure out how to understand the main points an expert makes. If you can't do that you shouldn't vote, because you have no idea what you're talking about and no way to judge the consequences.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Some issues of right and wrong don't need expertise in the consequences. E.g. "Burning hobos for fuel would be CO2 neutral. But it will have an effect on prices, and perhaps change stock fund values for pensioners. Hm, what should we do?"
  - Chris2048 10y ago
    How does a non-expert recognise an expert with so many claiming expertise? > If you can't do that you shouldn't vote, because you have no idea what you're talking about and no way to judge the consequences. Why? Can you assume, then, that only those who do know the consequences will vote instead? Who does know the consequences - experts? Also, who's to decide the importance or magnitude of an issue? Doesn't this mean that the ability to muddy the waters is the power to restrict votes? If we, the great unwashed don't understand the EU, or it's importance, how did our democratic country get into it in the first place? Surely the public understood it as little then? Or should we do what our politicians tell us to? ...

alexhawdon 10y ago

That would be sadly similar to Black Arrow 'R3' in 1971, Britain's first and only successful orbital launch. After that we abandoned the project, the only country to do so after such an achievement.

AnonymousPlanet 10y ago
Thanks for mentioning this. I had never heard of it. I love how its display in the London Science Museum reminds me of a Bond movie. From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Arrow: > Prior to the cancellation of Black Arrow, NASA had offered to launch British payloads for free; however, this offer was withdrawn following the decision to cancel Black Arrow. Ouch. Sounds like bait and switch.

thudson 10y ago

Helen Sharman was Britain's first astronaut -- she spent seven days on the Mir space station in 1991. Peake is the seventh British astronaut[0]. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_space_programme#British_astronauts https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_space_programme#Britis...