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The officer isn't an EMT and if he was really shot 4 times in the abdomen then nothing the officer has would stop the bleeding. Not only that but if the guy rea

The officer isn't an EMT and if he was really shot 4 times in the abdomen then nothing the officer has would stop the bleeding. Not only that but if the guy really did react in a threatening manner the officer is providing cover to make sure the gun doesn't come back out. I'm not advocating one side or the other on this, just letting you know how the protocols work.

grandalf 10y ago
> in the abdomen I think the shots were in the man's arm. I could be mistaken.
rdtsc 10y ago
> The officer isn't an EMT and if he was really shot 4 times in the abdomen then nothing the officer has would stop the bleeding. Hmm, not sure I agree with "he isn't helping just because he forgot or never learned first aid stuff". For example, there is footage out there of cops shooting their own, and here is what "trying to help even though not an EMT" might look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5SWkEAX64U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5SWkEAX64U
- tomschlick 10y ago
  I never said he forgot. Only that he is not a trained EMT with access to a trauma kit that would stop 4 GSWs. From the video he is also alone and has to secure the scene until backup arrives. Even if he had a kit in his car, he can't risk getting it with a gun still in the car. From his perspective he felt threatened enough to shoot and the gun is still with the victim(s) which could be turned against him. The video you provided was different because they immediately realized that the undercover officer was not a threat, and had multiple people on scene as well to start helping.
  - rdtsc 10y ago
    > Only that he is not a trained EMT with access to a trauma kit that would stop 4 GSWs. From the video he is also alone and has to secure the scene until backup arrives. I was trying to say even if he had a kit and was moonlighting as a rescue squad volunteer, nothing in his behavior indicated he was attempted to help. The video I linked was an example of how "attempted to help" might look like, and there is difference there it seems. Can see the other points of wanting to secure the scene or saying he was threated, but don't see the point at all of "well not an EMT, so that's why looked indifferent to the a person's suffering and death. If only he had a kit with him, he would have knelt down and attempted to stop the bleeding, but didn't so kept pointing the gun at him and watched him die..."
    - tomschlick 10y ago
      Kit or no kit, they still don't administer aid alone while there is still a potential threat. Getting that guy out of the car requires holstering your weapon and going in the car when you still might not know where the weapon is. Safer for the officer to wait for backup. That was my point.
  - 0707_hn 10y ago
    I made a response to a similar comment in another location (see ref 1). I only want to respond to the following claims: > he is not a trained EMT with access to a trauma kit that would stop 4 GSWs [gunshot wound, clarification added] There are other cases where Minnesota police officers are documented to have responded to gunshot wounds (ref. 2) Indeed, certain MN police departments provide additional training, beyond basic first aid, for trauma situations - see the edit to ref. 1. Further, you're implying that highly-specialized training ('EMT'), specific medical supplies ('trauma kit'), and injury severity ('4 GSWs') are important in considering rendering aid. My contention would be that, those factors absent, having a gun drawn and yelling at a victim are not appropriate responses to an event of this type. > he is also alone and has to secure the scene until backup arrives Backup is clearly present by the time the video is rolling and multiple officers appear on the video when Mr. Castile's girlfriend is removed from the car. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=12047969 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=12047969 [2] http://www.startribune.com/documents-detail-accidental-eden-prairie-police-shooting/367030571/ http://www.startribune.com/documents-detail-accidental-eden-...
bobberkarl 10y ago
LEt's not play doctor after death. He shot 4 times someone who revealed he was open carrying, and had his daughter in the car. Then he didn't provide basic assistance to someone shot even though he his trained for it.
- tomschlick 10y ago
  How do you know he is trained for administering GSW treatment? We don't know the full story here and I was just trying to point out why the protocol is basically to secure the scene and wait for backup when you're alone.
  - 0707_hn 10y ago
    I am only adding these posts for posterity's sake - in MN, there is an obligation to aid individuals who have been harmed and MN officers are trained to do this. Indeed, reports exist of MN officers responding to gun shot wounds (GSWs). See my earlier posts: [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=12047969 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=12047969 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12048024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12048024
    - tomschlick 10y ago
      And again I will suggest that and officer will not do that alone, before backup arrives after a shooting like this. I saw somewhere else that once backup arrived they started CPR which would be in line with what I am trying to point out.
- spraak 10y ago
  I'd like to share that regardless of the officer's training for medical situations, they didn't get help in time. They just let him die.
0707_hn 10y ago
I think you've made this post in multiple places but it's not applicable in this situation - see a reported image of police officers performing chest compressions on Mr. Castile in the article below [1]. More broadly, EMTs are not the only individuals capable of providing support after a shooting. Indeed, some state governments (e.g., VT and MN) have a statutory "duty to rescue" those exposed to grave physical harm for all individuals. One would hope that police officers would be the most likely to do this, especially after a grievous injury - even if the wounds proved not to be survivable, this is hard to assess from feet away, with a gun drawn. As an aside to counter a point you make elsewhere, there are multiple other police on the scene in the video, though it's not clear at what point they arrive. 1. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-shot-dead-minn-police-traffic-stop-article-1.2701935 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-shot-dead-minn-... EDIT: For posterity's sake, here's a press-release description of medical training that many Minneapolis/St. Paul are police officers receive: https://hcmcnews.org/2013/01/09/hcmc-network-feature-real-life-tactical-emergency-medicine-peace-officer-tempo%EF%A3%AA-training-for-law-enforcement-personnel/ https://hcmcnews.org/2013/01/09/hcmc-network-feature-real-li...
- tomschlick 10y ago
  My main point is that any officer would not likely provide that treatment without backup after a shooting like this. Also officers are not usually covered under the good samaritan laws, so their actions can lead to lawsuits if they cause more damage and don't have training. So a lot of times they do just wait for the EMTs.
spraak 10y ago
What I don't understand is why any EMTs weren't called right then.. they might have been able to save his life if they hadn't waited so long (he died later in the hospital)
- tomschlick 10y ago
  They probably were. Whenever the officer would radio "shots fired" the dispatcher would automatically start an ambulance. Just depends on how long it takes them to get there.

grandalf 10y ago

> in the abdomen I think the shots were in the man's arm. I could be mistaken.

rdtsc 10y ago

> The officer isn't an EMT and if he was really shot 4 times in the abdomen then nothing the officer has would stop the bleeding. Hmm, not sure I agree with "he isn't helping just because he forgot or never learned first aid stuff". For example, there is footage out there of cops shooting their own, and here is what "trying to help even though not an EMT" might look like: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5SWkEAX64U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V5SWkEAX64U

tomschlick 10y ago
I never said he forgot. Only that he is not a trained EMT with access to a trauma kit that would stop 4 GSWs. From the video he is also alone and has to secure the scene until backup arrives. Even if he had a kit in his car, he can't risk getting it with a gun still in the car. From his perspective he felt threatened enough to shoot and the gun is still with the victim(s) which could be turned against him. The video you provided was different because they immediately realized that the undercover officer was not a threat, and had multiple people on scene as well to start helping.
- rdtsc 10y ago
  > Only that he is not a trained EMT with access to a trauma kit that would stop 4 GSWs. From the video he is also alone and has to secure the scene until backup arrives. I was trying to say even if he had a kit and was moonlighting as a rescue squad volunteer, nothing in his behavior indicated he was attempted to help. The video I linked was an example of how "attempted to help" might look like, and there is difference there it seems. Can see the other points of wanting to secure the scene or saying he was threated, but don't see the point at all of "well not an EMT, so that's why looked indifferent to the a person's suffering and death. If only he had a kit with him, he would have knelt down and attempted to stop the bleeding, but didn't so kept pointing the gun at him and watched him die..."
  - tomschlick 10y ago
    Kit or no kit, they still don't administer aid alone while there is still a potential threat. Getting that guy out of the car requires holstering your weapon and going in the car when you still might not know where the weapon is. Safer for the officer to wait for backup. That was my point.
- 0707_hn 10y ago
  I made a response to a similar comment in another location (see ref 1). I only want to respond to the following claims: > he is not a trained EMT with access to a trauma kit that would stop 4 GSWs [gunshot wound, clarification added] There are other cases where Minnesota police officers are documented to have responded to gunshot wounds (ref. 2) Indeed, certain MN police departments provide additional training, beyond basic first aid, for trauma situations - see the edit to ref. 1. Further, you're implying that highly-specialized training ('EMT'), specific medical supplies ('trauma kit'), and injury severity ('4 GSWs') are important in considering rendering aid. My contention would be that, those factors absent, having a gun drawn and yelling at a victim are not appropriate responses to an event of this type. > he is also alone and has to secure the scene until backup arrives Backup is clearly present by the time the video is rolling and multiple officers appear on the video when Mr. Castile's girlfriend is removed from the car. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=12047969 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=12047969 [2] http://www.startribune.com/documents-detail-accidental-eden-prairie-police-shooting/367030571/ http://www.startribune.com/documents-detail-accidental-eden-...

bobberkarl 10y ago

LEt's not play doctor after death. He shot 4 times someone who revealed he was open carrying, and had his daughter in the car. Then he didn't provide basic assistance to someone shot even though he his trained for it.

tomschlick 10y ago
How do you know he is trained for administering GSW treatment? We don't know the full story here and I was just trying to point out why the protocol is basically to secure the scene and wait for backup when you're alone.
- 0707_hn 10y ago
  I am only adding these posts for posterity's sake - in MN, there is an obligation to aid individuals who have been harmed and MN officers are trained to do this. Indeed, reports exist of MN officers responding to gun shot wounds (GSWs). See my earlier posts: [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=12047969 https://news.ycombinator.com/edit?id=12047969 [2] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12048024 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12048024
  - tomschlick 10y ago
    And again I will suggest that and officer will not do that alone, before backup arrives after a shooting like this. I saw somewhere else that once backup arrived they started CPR which would be in line with what I am trying to point out.
spraak 10y ago
I'd like to share that regardless of the officer's training for medical situations, they didn't get help in time. They just let him die.

0707_hn 10y ago

I think you've made this post in multiple places but it's not applicable in this situation - see a reported image of police officers performing chest compressions on Mr. Castile in the article below [1]. More broadly, EMTs are not the only individuals capable of providing support after a shooting. Indeed, some state governments (e.g., VT and MN) have a statutory "duty to rescue" those exposed to grave physical harm for all individuals. One would hope that police officers would be the most likely to do this, especially after a grievous injury - even if the wounds proved not to be survivable, this is hard to assess from feet away, with a gun drawn. As an aside to counter a point you make elsewhere, there are multiple other police on the scene in the video, though it's not clear at what point they arrive. 1. http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-shot-dead-minn-police-traffic-stop-article-1.2701935 http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-shot-dead-minn-... EDIT: For posterity's sake, here's a press-release description of medical training that many Minneapolis/St. Paul are police officers receive: https://hcmcnews.org/2013/01/09/hcmc-network-feature-real-life-tactical-emergency-medicine-peace-officer-tempo%EF%A3%AA-training-for-law-enforcement-personnel/ https://hcmcnews.org/2013/01/09/hcmc-network-feature-real-li...

tomschlick 10y ago
My main point is that any officer would not likely provide that treatment without backup after a shooting like this. Also officers are not usually covered under the good samaritan laws, so their actions can lead to lawsuits if they cause more damage and don't have training. So a lot of times they do just wait for the EMTs.

spraak 10y ago

What I don't understand is why any EMTs weren't called right then.. they might have been able to save his life if they hadn't waited so long (he died later in the hospital)

tomschlick 10y ago
They probably were. Whenever the officer would radio "shots fired" the dispatcher would automatically start an ambulance. Just depends on how long it takes them to get there.