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A common quality amongst many "leaders" in our society (and by "leaders", I mean a particular brand of relatively high functioning psychopath/narcissist that te

A common quality amongst many "leaders" in our society (and by "leaders", I mean a particular brand of relatively high functioning psychopath/narcissist that tends to thrive in such environments, be it politics or the boardroom/management/e-suite) is the ability to believe whatever they need to believe to paint themselves in the best possible light and achieve their ends at that particular time. If you do not have that little voice that whispers what you're doing is wrong, or that you're a fraud, or that you really shouldn't be doing that, or that its not fair or right... or even any internal concern with objective truth or fact, you will find it remarkably easy to climb in many hierarchical structures, because you don't have to pay the cognitive costs many of the the others need to pay to remain there. Now I, unsurprisingly, don't know Bush or Blair. Maybe they're actually people...who cynically make up facts, spread lies, and throw away lives for their own political agenda. Or maybe they're just ignorant fools who went into it all based on emotions and all the spineless yes men just set them up with a self-reinforcing circle jerk, like a government level facebook filter-bubble. That's probably the best/most flattering possible interpretation... But given I believe there are a disproportionate number of "reality-warpers" in leadership positions, I must at least concede its POSSIBLE they really did believe there were weapons of mass destruction. In reality, its probably some banal mixture of all the above...

agumonkey 10y ago
I tend to believe in similar structure. What amazes me is how this bubbling is so natural for societies. What is it that groups like in this kind of individual ? massive lack of doubt that appease flocks ?
- TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
  Psychopaths are unusually charming and persuasive. Business, law, and politics are all about persuasion, not truth or honesty. So by default they're environments in which psychopaths can thrive. I think there's exactly one political problem - how to keep psychopaths away from money, power, and influence. Everything else that goes wrong in politics and business is a direct result of feedback loops that reward psychopathic traits instead of excluding them. The world would be an infinitely more pleasant and more effective place if this could be achieved.
  - lsc 10y ago
    this doesn't answer the question, or at least not the whole question. Why do most people seem to really like people with "leadership" traits even when they seem obviously disingenuous? on a more personal level, I find this question even more confusing, because I seem to have a fairly strong negative emotional response to people with "leadership" traits. "Why would you follow that slimebag?" is usually my response.
    - agumonkey 10y ago
      Or more why isn't that bug tamed in some way. It seems that people let it happen, then forget, or move on. Then a new set of people will elect a moron. Etc etc .. There's no memory or structure to control or avoid that "more effectively".
    - pm90 10y ago
      Most people today are brought up in education systems that encourage conformity and obedience to authority. To some degree, some amount of conformity is required to prevent total anarchy. But that system of encouraging obedience is indoctrinated early and is very very strong. A leader simply emulates the same traits as a person of authority and thus is able to "hijack" that neurological response. Personally, coming from an education system that places an even stronger emphasis on conformity than the American one, it took me a long time to figure out just how much it affects me and my friends. I don't know if it can be reversed but I'm glad to be aware of it at least.
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    - mindslight 10y ago
      I think this question inverts the causality. The slimeballs are playing a meta strategy, developing the traits that engender trust etc in the majority of people. It doesn't matter that a few see through this (and gradually develop a strong aversion to them), as long as the majority continues to be tricked. It's an evolutionary game - if the majority start to get wise, the slimeballs up their game, change messages (/faces), or in the worst case back off slightly. Therefore it's not a matter of trying to keep "these people" out of positions of power, but reducing the centralization of power that inherently attracts and enables metagamers.
- grkvlt 10y ago
  do you people genuinely believe that 'all politicians are liars' or some variant thereof? that's pretty sad, and suggests falling victim to certain cognitive biases, particularly confirmation bias and some kind of negative reinforcement effect. in the real world, most politicians are honestly trying to make things better for their constituents, with minor exceptions to that rule as always.
delazeur 10y ago
Supposedly Reagan was admired by his political colleagues for his ability to genuinely believe in what he was saying. They just had to pretend.

agumonkey 10y ago

I tend to believe in similar structure. What amazes me is how this bubbling is so natural for societies. What is it that groups like in this kind of individual ? massive lack of doubt that appease flocks ?

TheOtherHobbes 10y ago
Psychopaths are unusually charming and persuasive. Business, law, and politics are all about persuasion, not truth or honesty. So by default they're environments in which psychopaths can thrive. I think there's exactly one political problem - how to keep psychopaths away from money, power, and influence. Everything else that goes wrong in politics and business is a direct result of feedback loops that reward psychopathic traits instead of excluding them. The world would be an infinitely more pleasant and more effective place if this could be achieved.
- lsc 10y ago
  this doesn't answer the question, or at least not the whole question. Why do most people seem to really like people with "leadership" traits even when they seem obviously disingenuous? on a more personal level, I find this question even more confusing, because I seem to have a fairly strong negative emotional response to people with "leadership" traits. "Why would you follow that slimebag?" is usually my response.
  - agumonkey 10y ago
    Or more why isn't that bug tamed in some way. It seems that people let it happen, then forget, or move on. Then a new set of people will elect a moron. Etc etc .. There's no memory or structure to control or avoid that "more effectively".
  - pm90 10y ago
    Most people today are brought up in education systems that encourage conformity and obedience to authority. To some degree, some amount of conformity is required to prevent total anarchy. But that system of encouraging obedience is indoctrinated early and is very very strong. A leader simply emulates the same traits as a person of authority and thus is able to "hijack" that neurological response. Personally, coming from an education system that places an even stronger emphasis on conformity than the American one, it took me a long time to figure out just how much it affects me and my friends. I don't know if it can be reversed but I'm glad to be aware of it at least.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
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    [deleted]
  - mindslight 10y ago
    I think this question inverts the causality. The slimeballs are playing a meta strategy, developing the traits that engender trust etc in the majority of people. It doesn't matter that a few see through this (and gradually develop a strong aversion to them), as long as the majority continues to be tricked. It's an evolutionary game - if the majority start to get wise, the slimeballs up their game, change messages (/faces), or in the worst case back off slightly. Therefore it's not a matter of trying to keep "these people" out of positions of power, but reducing the centralization of power that inherently attracts and enables metagamers.
grkvlt 10y ago
do you people genuinely believe that 'all politicians are liars' or some variant thereof? that's pretty sad, and suggests falling victim to certain cognitive biases, particularly confirmation bias and some kind of negative reinforcement effect. in the real world, most politicians are honestly trying to make things better for their constituents, with minor exceptions to that rule as always.

delazeur 10y ago

Supposedly Reagan was admired by his political colleagues for his ability to genuinely believe in what he was saying. They just had to pretend.