8 ms·

Why do people sleep on benches instead of shelters? When you look at a typical homeless person nest, it is arranged to protect them from theft and violence. It'

by fatdog 10y ago

Why do people sleep on benches instead of shelters? When you look at a typical homeless person nest, it is arranged to protect them from theft and violence. It's either in a well populated place, usually with middle class people who will report violence, or where they can hear people coming, has good visibility, a corner for their back, etc. When you look at a typical homeless shelter, it has bunks or cots, no security, people with no reason to report violence, and it's full of desperate homeless people with addictions and erratic mental illness. They don't want to be around each other because they know it's dangerous. Why would you go to a shelter unless you were looking for trouble? It's full of predators. Charitable organizations don't give homeless people privacy for fear of the human things they will do, like drink, use drugs, have sex, etc. The street or a park provides relative privacy and freedom, within walking distance of services. Given most homeless people are men, the solutions are more likely to involve providing basic physical privacy and security than comfort or sympathy.

bluedino 10y ago
Shelters do have rules and many homeless don't want to go there (or have been banned) because they don't want to follow the rules.
- ethanbond 10y ago
  Rules like "don't do drugs" which is 100% medically irresponsible and unrealistic? I'm not sure of a good solution here, but this statement really begs the question of whether the rules are pragmatic, helpful, or fair.
JohnL4 10y ago
There are more homeless people than beds in shelters, for one.
- richmarr 10y ago
  Suspect parent was asking a rhetorical question, but what data are you looking at? Not sure it's true universally. Shelter (UK homeless charity) broadly agrees with parents claim that privacy & other residents are a significant problem. http://england.shelter.org.uk/campaigns_/why_we_campaign/tackling_homelessness/tackling_street_homelessness http://england.shelter.org.uk/campaigns_/why_we_campaign/tac...
  - dpark 10y ago
    >Not sure it's true universally. I'm pretty sure it is, due to basic economics. Running shelters is not free. No one builds extra capacity that they don't expect to use. Assuming a reasonably efficient "market", new beds would get added only when there is sufficient demand to fill them. That means that there must be people without beds in order for new ones to get funded. Also, I've never heard of anywhere with a significant population of homeless people that didn't have problems with shelter capacity. London alone has ~3500 people sleeping on the street each night. Are there really 3500 unused shelter beds in London? http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/rough-sleeping.html http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/rough-sleeping.html Undoubtedly some areas do a better job than others, though.
    - richmarr 10y ago
      > I'm pretty sure it is, due to basic economics... Not being funny, but basic economics also rules out a bunch of other stuff that exists. For example, in Medicine Hat, Canada, they just provide you with an actual home of your own if you're in a shelter for 10 days.
      - dpark 10y ago
        Basic economics make that really expensive, but not just a waste of money, which is what excess capacity in shelters is. And yes, it's possible that there are places with tons of excess capacity because the people there have chosen to intentionally overfund out of an abundance of caution and compassion, but I've never heard of such a place.
        richmarr 10y ago
        > Basic economics make that really expensive, but not just a waste of money, which is what excess capacity in shelters is. If you boil it down to a bed counting problem you're right, but it's not as simple as that. Take London as an example. There are shelters, hostels, and even B&Bs in use to keep homeless folks off the street. Each serves different markets, with seasonal changes. Empty beds are already part of the operating model for hostels and B&Bs, so the capacity exists. In my opinion the more challenging questions are around how to connect the supply and demand (in the presence of funding, obviously). I'm not saying basic economics isn't a useful tool, just that it's usually a poor proof of anything in the real world. The clue is in the word "basic".
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
percept 10y ago
"I don't want to be around those people." We don't, either. I've seen this comment numerous times (that homeless people don't feel safe in shelters), and it's in part why shelters don't entirely solve the problem. The shelters need to be made safer, and/or other options need to be explored.
empath75 10y ago
That's why we should just give them houses: http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic...
- coryfklein 10y ago
  But if we just give the homeless houses, everyone will stop working and become "homeless" to get a free house! Edit: Apparently a /hyperbole tag was needed. I live in Utah, and am very proud of our homeless housing. In this comment I was trying to simultaneously bring up the common opposing argument to this housing solution while also showing how ridiculous it sounds. Since we started providing houses for the homeless there have been approximately zero people who have stopped working to get a free house.
  - antisthenes 10y ago
    > there have been approximately zero people who have stopped working to get a free house. That's only because I haven't gotten around to moving to Utah yet!
    - SilasX 10y ago
      And because you didn't think of claiming to have "lost" your papers so you can get a free house.
  - Kalium 10y ago
    The response in some other areas is "Well, if we gave them housing, we'd have to allow those other people who aren't homeless to have new housing too, and we can't do that..." You're justly proud of Utah's policy. And all the NIMBYism it skips past.
ascotan 10y ago
Most of the homeless I've seen sleep on heating grates not on benches. Am I in the wrong city?
tirant 10y ago
Not only homeless people would like to sleep in benches. Sometimes you just want to rest a bit, and a bench in a park is a good location.
TFortunato 10y ago
Out of curiosity, I'm wondering why you say: "Charitable organizations don't give homeless people privacy for fear of the human things they will do, like drink, use drugs, have sex, etc."? I know very little about how most of these organizations are run, but my thoughts would have been "most organizations aren't very well funded and have a limited amount of square footage to work in. If the goal is to get as many people into a warm bed as possible with your resources, than the best way to do this is probably packing as many bunks into an open area as you can, rather than trying to split to floor space into private / semi-private rooms". The end result obviously has some unintended side effects, and I'm certainly not saying this is the best way to run a shelter, but I also don't necessarily buy that a charity set up to shelter homeless people is also looking to dehumanize them, but rather simply working with what they have. But maybe my interpretation is too charitable (no pun intended).
coolsunglasses 10y ago
>Why do people sleep on benches instead of shelters? When I was homeless in NYC, I followed the advice of a local and called 311 to see if I could get a bed. In order to use the shelter's facilities I had to check myself into drug rehab. I also wasn't allowed to work a job if I was sleeping at the shelter. I was neither drug addicted nor willing to give up the full-time temp work I had taken up to survive. This was the only option offered me by the person over the phone. I asked if there were other options, she said no. I figured there might be private (religious?) charities but I figured I needed it less than most being a white young male. Instead, I slept on the street (about a week?) until a reddit user let me crash at their place until I got on my feet. That's why I slept on an uncomfortable park bench in Brooklyn rather than in a shelter. NYPD left me alone anyway. I would talk to them when I woke, around 5 or 6 am. I miss how well-rested I was then. I still remember how it felt.
- st3v3r 10y ago
  "I figured there might be private (religious?) charities but I figured I needed it less than most being a white young male." I honestly don't get this mindset. You're already homeless. Those private/religious charities exist for exactly the purpose of helping you out.
  - coolsunglasses 10y ago
    I wasn't in any physical danger. Some people on the street have exes and other sorts to fear. I also knew I could seek shelter from private strangers with relatively little fear because I was male. Part of the reason shelters are the way they are is because they are desperately limited in terms of beds they can offer. The hassle is a way to keep demand down. I wasn't going to contribute to the problem.

by fatdog 10y ago

bluedino 10y ago

Shelters do have rules and many homeless don't want to go there (or have been banned) because they don't want to follow the rules.

ethanbond 10y ago
Rules like "don't do drugs" which is 100% medically irresponsible and unrealistic? I'm not sure of a good solution here, but this statement really begs the question of whether the rules are pragmatic, helpful, or fair.

JohnL4 10y ago

There are more homeless people than beds in shelters, for one.

richmarr 10y ago
Suspect parent was asking a rhetorical question, but what data are you looking at? Not sure it's true universally. Shelter (UK homeless charity) broadly agrees with parents claim that privacy & other residents are a significant problem. http://england.shelter.org.uk/campaigns_/why_we_campaign/tackling_homelessness/tackling_street_homelessness http://england.shelter.org.uk/campaigns_/why_we_campaign/tac...
- dpark 10y ago
  >Not sure it's true universally. I'm pretty sure it is, due to basic economics. Running shelters is not free. No one builds extra capacity that they don't expect to use. Assuming a reasonably efficient "market", new beds would get added only when there is sufficient demand to fill them. That means that there must be people without beds in order for new ones to get funded. Also, I've never heard of anywhere with a significant population of homeless people that didn't have problems with shelter capacity. London alone has ~3500 people sleeping on the street each night. Are there really 3500 unused shelter beds in London? http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/rough-sleeping.html http://www.crisis.org.uk/pages/rough-sleeping.html Undoubtedly some areas do a better job than others, though.
  - richmarr 10y ago
    > I'm pretty sure it is, due to basic economics... Not being funny, but basic economics also rules out a bunch of other stuff that exists. For example, in Medicine Hat, Canada, they just provide you with an actual home of your own if you're in a shelter for 10 days.
    - dpark 10y ago
      Basic economics make that really expensive, but not just a waste of money, which is what excess capacity in shelters is. And yes, it's possible that there are places with tons of excess capacity because the people there have chosen to intentionally overfund out of an abundance of caution and compassion, but I've never heard of such a place.
      - richmarr 10y ago
        > Basic economics make that really expensive, but not just a waste of money, which is what excess capacity in shelters is. If you boil it down to a bed counting problem you're right, but it's not as simple as that. Take London as an example. There are shelters, hostels, and even B&Bs in use to keep homeless folks off the street. Each serves different markets, with seasonal changes. Empty beds are already part of the operating model for hostels and B&Bs, so the capacity exists. In my opinion the more challenging questions are around how to connect the supply and demand (in the presence of funding, obviously). I'm not saying basic economics isn't a useful tool, just that it's usually a poor proof of anything in the real world. The clue is in the word "basic".

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]

percept 10y ago

"I don't want to be around those people." We don't, either. I've seen this comment numerous times (that homeless people don't feel safe in shelters), and it's in part why shelters don't entirely solve the problem. The shelters need to be made safer, and/or other options need to be explored.

empath75 10y ago

That's why we should just give them houses: http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how http://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic...

coryfklein 10y ago
But if we just give the homeless houses, everyone will stop working and become "homeless" to get a free house! Edit: Apparently a /hyperbole tag was needed. I live in Utah, and am very proud of our homeless housing. In this comment I was trying to simultaneously bring up the common opposing argument to this housing solution while also showing how ridiculous it sounds. Since we started providing houses for the homeless there have been approximately zero people who have stopped working to get a free house.
- antisthenes 10y ago
  > there have been approximately zero people who have stopped working to get a free house. That's only because I haven't gotten around to moving to Utah yet!
  - SilasX 10y ago
    And because you didn't think of claiming to have "lost" your papers so you can get a free house.
- Kalium 10y ago
  The response in some other areas is "Well, if we gave them housing, we'd have to allow those other people who aren't homeless to have new housing too, and we can't do that..." You're justly proud of Utah's policy. And all the NIMBYism it skips past.

ascotan 10y ago

Most of the homeless I've seen sleep on heating grates not on benches. Am I in the wrong city?

tirant 10y ago

Not only homeless people would like to sleep in benches. Sometimes you just want to rest a bit, and a bench in a park is a good location.

TFortunato 10y ago

Out of curiosity, I'm wondering why you say: "Charitable organizations don't give homeless people privacy for fear of the human things they will do, like drink, use drugs, have sex, etc."? I know very little about how most of these organizations are run, but my thoughts would have been "most organizations aren't very well funded and have a limited amount of square footage to work in. If the goal is to get as many people into a warm bed as possible with your resources, than the best way to do this is probably packing as many bunks into an open area as you can, rather than trying to split to floor space into private / semi-private rooms". The end result obviously has some unintended side effects, and I'm certainly not saying this is the best way to run a shelter, but I also don't necessarily buy that a charity set up to shelter homeless people is also looking to dehumanize them, but rather simply working with what they have. But maybe my interpretation is too charitable (no pun intended).

coolsunglasses 10y ago

>Why do people sleep on benches instead of shelters? When I was homeless in NYC, I followed the advice of a local and called 311 to see if I could get a bed. In order to use the shelter's facilities I had to check myself into drug rehab. I also wasn't allowed to work a job if I was sleeping at the shelter. I was neither drug addicted nor willing to give up the full-time temp work I had taken up to survive. This was the only option offered me by the person over the phone. I asked if there were other options, she said no. I figured there might be private (religious?) charities but I figured I needed it less than most being a white young male. Instead, I slept on the street (about a week?) until a reddit user let me crash at their place until I got on my feet. That's why I slept on an uncomfortable park bench in Brooklyn rather than in a shelter. NYPD left me alone anyway. I would talk to them when I woke, around 5 or 6 am. I miss how well-rested I was then. I still remember how it felt.

st3v3r 10y ago
"I figured there might be private (religious?) charities but I figured I needed it less than most being a white young male." I honestly don't get this mindset. You're already homeless. Those private/religious charities exist for exactly the purpose of helping you out.
- coolsunglasses 10y ago
  I wasn't in any physical danger. Some people on the street have exes and other sorts to fear. I also knew I could seek shelter from private strangers with relatively little fear because I was male. Part of the reason shelters are the way they are is because they are desperately limited in terms of beds they can offer. The hassle is a way to keep demand down. I wasn't going to contribute to the problem.