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It's wrong because it means to give up, to close your ears and eyes against the real problem. Anti-social behavior like "homeless sleeping in cavernous shop en

It's wrong because it means to give up, to close your ears and eyes against the real problem. Anti-social behavior like "homeless sleeping in cavernous shop entries" does not come from nothing. People aren't normally like this. It comes from their environment being anti-social to them by refusing to aid fellow citizens in need. Being social means to actively try and be a society. By actions such as putting up these spikes, these companies are only being anti-social themselves.

skybrian 10y ago
It seems like you're suggesting that as an alternative, we use collective punishment. City dwellers should be putting up with an unpleasant urban environment until someone fixes the homeless problem. Therefore any stopgap measures should be resisted. It's not clear whether this works. On the one hand it does keep the homeless visible. On the other hand it also punishes people who can't practically participate in local politics (tourists for example). And in general, politically powerful people aren't waiting at bus stops all that much, so this strategy doesn't seem all that well-targetted. It may also be counterproductive in that it makes people less rather than more willing to support measures that help the homeless and instead promote measures that punish them in return. That is, punishment may encourage more punishment in response. But I'm just speculating here. It seems like this is unlikely to be settled without actual evidence.
- Kristine1975 10y ago
  > On the other hand it also punishes people who can't practically participate in local politics (tourists for example) Seeing homeless people is punishment?
  - skybrian 10y ago
    If homeless people are living in the park, other people aren't using it. (Edited)
    - Mithaldu 10y ago
      Seeing homeless people can be worse than punishment?
      - jerf 10y ago
        You keep calling for people to see the homeless as human, but you're not doing it yourself. You seem to have some infantalized, romantic image of them where they are not capable of doing any wrong and anything that happens to them is the result of external forces out of their control. But they are human. They may be wonderful people down on their luck. They are also capable of being horrible people, committing crimes without any particular excuse, and making bad decisions that are every bit as much their responsibility as it is mine when I make bad decisions. That is irreducibly part of what it means to be human, and if you take that from a group, you have dehumanized them. And in the aggregate, a group of them will inevitably contain some of the latter. You can't address the problem by neglecting that fact. Many have tried, and as always happens when the solution doesn't match the real problem in the real world, those solutions failed. If berating people about homelessness was the solution, the problem would be solved already. That solution has been tried a lot.
        JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Maybe not 'every bit as much their responsibility'. People can be backed into a corner, and do things we cannot imagine sitting comfortably in our armchairs. See "Les Miserables" for an example.
        jerf 10y ago
        Fair enough. But I refuse to remove all responsibility, because that's dehumanizing itself.
        Mithaldu 10y ago
        By the point someone is homeless it is abundantly clear that they are faced with a burden of responsibility they are incapable of handling.
- Mithaldu 10y ago
  You complain against punishment, but you seem to be accepting of people already being punished for having been failed by their society in the first place.
  - skybrian 10y ago
    I'm just pointing out some problems to consider. That doesn't say anything about what solutions I'll support.
coryfklein 10y ago
> It's wrong because it means to give up, to close your ears and eyes against the real problem. These aren't mutually exclusive. A shop owner can simultaneously lobby for resolving the root problem of homelessness and lobby for homeless-deterrent benches in the public space in front of their store.

skybrian 10y ago

It seems like you're suggesting that as an alternative, we use collective punishment. City dwellers should be putting up with an unpleasant urban environment until someone fixes the homeless problem. Therefore any stopgap measures should be resisted. It's not clear whether this works. On the one hand it does keep the homeless visible. On the other hand it also punishes people who can't practically participate in local politics (tourists for example). And in general, politically powerful people aren't waiting at bus stops all that much, so this strategy doesn't seem all that well-targetted. It may also be counterproductive in that it makes people less rather than more willing to support measures that help the homeless and instead promote measures that punish them in return. That is, punishment may encourage more punishment in response. But I'm just speculating here. It seems like this is unlikely to be settled without actual evidence.

Kristine1975 10y ago
> On the other hand it also punishes people who can't practically participate in local politics (tourists for example) Seeing homeless people is punishment?
- skybrian 10y ago
  If homeless people are living in the park, other people aren't using it. (Edited)
  - Mithaldu 10y ago
    Seeing homeless people can be worse than punishment?
    - jerf 10y ago
      You keep calling for people to see the homeless as human, but you're not doing it yourself. You seem to have some infantalized, romantic image of them where they are not capable of doing any wrong and anything that happens to them is the result of external forces out of their control. But they are human. They may be wonderful people down on their luck. They are also capable of being horrible people, committing crimes without any particular excuse, and making bad decisions that are every bit as much their responsibility as it is mine when I make bad decisions. That is irreducibly part of what it means to be human, and if you take that from a group, you have dehumanized them. And in the aggregate, a group of them will inevitably contain some of the latter. You can't address the problem by neglecting that fact. Many have tried, and as always happens when the solution doesn't match the real problem in the real world, those solutions failed. If berating people about homelessness was the solution, the problem would be solved already. That solution has been tried a lot.
      - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
        Maybe not 'every bit as much their responsibility'. People can be backed into a corner, and do things we cannot imagine sitting comfortably in our armchairs. See "Les Miserables" for an example.
        jerf 10y ago
        Fair enough. But I refuse to remove all responsibility, because that's dehumanizing itself.
        Mithaldu 10y ago
        By the point someone is homeless it is abundantly clear that they are faced with a burden of responsibility they are incapable of handling.
Mithaldu 10y ago
You complain against punishment, but you seem to be accepting of people already being punished for having been failed by their society in the first place.
- skybrian 10y ago
  I'm just pointing out some problems to consider. That doesn't say anything about what solutions I'll support.

coryfklein 10y ago

> It's wrong because it means to give up, to close your ears and eyes against the real problem. These aren't mutually exclusive. A shop owner can simultaneously lobby for resolving the root problem of homelessness and lobby for homeless-deterrent benches in the public space in front of their store.