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[EDIT: removed the scientifically valueless bits] Almost all of my illnesses have been contracted either at work or from my partner who contracted it at work.

by elif 10y ago

[EDIT: removed the scientifically valueless bits] Almost all of my illnesses have been contracted either at work or from my partner who contracted it at work. I think it is also worth noting that our current capital-centric trajectory does not lead off of this planet either. We are far closer to global catastrophe than we are to extraterrestrial colonization.

notahacker 10y ago
Anecdata versus an increase in life expectancy from the mid-20s to around 80 isn't a very compelling argument against the benefits from modern medicine...
- WalterBright 10y ago
  Most of the modern increase in life expectancy has come from clean water, plenty of nutritious food, and vaccines against childhood diseases.
  - Spooky23 10y ago
    > Most of the modern increase in life expectancy has come from clean water, plenty of nutritious food, and vaccines against childhood diseases. ... All of which have been driven by the application of lessons learned by public health doctors and scientists.
    - WalterBright 10y ago
      Not the food one. That was driven by the agricultural revolution.
      - Spooky23 10y ago
        The agricultural revolution was about feeding the massive postwar population boom. I'm talking about the 1890-1940 activity to make food safe. Stuff like mandatory pasteurization of milk, wholesomeness requirements for meats, etc. You had early 20th century Typhoid epidemics in NYC fueled by bad milk.
        WalterBright 10y ago
        I actually meant the mechanization of agriculture that began in the US starting around 1800. Tractors and such hugely improved yields. Trains enabled fresh food to be quickly shipped around the country year round. If you take a look at longevity and infant mortality statistics, they got dramatically better from 1800 to 1890.
        dredmorbius 10y ago
        NYC mortality rates 1800-2005 https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/MsQfdPAn_0XUdZUoReBfbg https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/MsQfdPAn_0XUdZUoReBfbg I'd call it 1880-1920, but yes.
  - CydeWeys 10y ago
    > Most of the modern increase in life expectancy has come from clean water, plenty of nutritious food, and vaccines against childhood diseases. All of which you need civilization to properly achieve, and which aren't available to purely hunter-gatherer societies.
    - dredmorbius 10y ago
      Many of the problems necessitating the solutions don't become critical until you've got civilization in the first place. A nomadic culture in a moderate climate doesn't cluster to the point it has contaminated drinking water, is floating in its own effluvia, or is breeding epidemics. Mid-ninteenth century London and New York were pretty horrible. No freshwater supplies, no sewers, no waste removal, horse-drawn transport leaving droppings, urin, and carcasses everywhere, cholera epidemics killing 50,000 people a year. Absent in-migration, London couldn't maintain its population. I'm not saying pre-ag life was easy. Simply that early industrial conditions were horrid.
Jtsummers 10y ago
Why are most of your contracted illnesses now viral and not fungal or bacterial? Because modern medicine has rendered the latter two nearly obsolete. People who contract them get treated for them and they're less likely to spread throughout your community. Even many viral infections are far less common thanks to vaccinations and early intervention/isolation. > Almost all of my illnesses have been contracted either at work or from my partner who contracted it at work. And this is a social problem, not a "modern medicine" problem. Idiots need to stop going to the office sick. One dumbass knocked out half my office 3 or 4 years back. Came in with a cold, 15 people sick over the next two weeks.
- koide 10y ago
  And the idiots' bosses should encourage them not to go instead of pressuring them so much that they feel they have to go even when sick so they don't lose their job or their status. It's a complex problem, it's not just the sick to blame.
Vraxx 10y ago
Interesting anecdote, although, as I never get tired of stressing, other people do exist and have different experiences. People are kept alive all the time by medicinal techniques that have been developed and just because your doctor visits have not saved your life does not mean that many others have not experienced the wonders of modern medicine. Also you're taking for granted all of the illnesses you avoided merely by being vaccinated for them as a child. Almost nobody in developed society contracts polio anymore, but that doesn't make it any less lethal to groups not acquainted with modern medicine.
a_c_s 10y ago
You're ignoring all of the diseases you don't get due to vaccinations and other eradication efforts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diseases_eliminated_from_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diseases_eliminated_fr... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_diseases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_dise...
Spooky23 10y ago
You're fortunate. When your hunter-gatherer alter ego gets wounded by a spear or an animal, there's a high probability that that wound is going to get infected, and a moderate probability that the wound turn into sepsis and kill you.
openasocket 10y ago
That's because you've been vaccinated and centuries of disease outbreak management have decimated the prevalence of infectious disease. You're also far more likely to have medical problems from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle: frequent activity can lead to injury, frequent contact with animal life, and poor food sanitation. Not to mention that once you get sick you can't produce food, which means your tribe has to support you. Which would be okay if food is plentiful and only a few people are sick, but if there's an epidemic suddenly your half your tribe is sick and no one can gather food for the next two weeks.
CydeWeys 10y ago
I'm sorry that you catch a cold every so often, but there's double digit chances that you would have already died prior to reaching adulthood in a hunter-gatherer society. The two aren't remotely comparable. And while anecdata don't prove points, let me present to you my opposing anecdote. I recently fractured my tibia in a fall. I had it properly treated by doctors, and not quite three months afterwards all that remains of my injury is a slight limp, which should be gone in another month with continuing physical therapy. Meanwhile, in a hunter-gatherer society, this type of injury would likely result in permanent lifelong lameness, and could easily be a death sentence. But for me it was just an inconvenience -- I only even lost a total of three days of work, because modern civilization thankfully affords me the opportunity to be a knowledge worker. I can deal with catching the occasional cold.

by elif 10y ago

notahacker 10y ago

Anecdata versus an increase in life expectancy from the mid-20s to around 80 isn't a very compelling argument against the benefits from modern medicine...

WalterBright 10y ago
Most of the modern increase in life expectancy has come from clean water, plenty of nutritious food, and vaccines against childhood diseases.
- Spooky23 10y ago
  > Most of the modern increase in life expectancy has come from clean water, plenty of nutritious food, and vaccines against childhood diseases. ... All of which have been driven by the application of lessons learned by public health doctors and scientists.
  - WalterBright 10y ago
    Not the food one. That was driven by the agricultural revolution.
    - Spooky23 10y ago
      The agricultural revolution was about feeding the massive postwar population boom. I'm talking about the 1890-1940 activity to make food safe. Stuff like mandatory pasteurization of milk, wholesomeness requirements for meats, etc. You had early 20th century Typhoid epidemics in NYC fueled by bad milk.
      - WalterBright 10y ago
        I actually meant the mechanization of agriculture that began in the US starting around 1800. Tractors and such hugely improved yields. Trains enabled fresh food to be quickly shipped around the country year round. If you take a look at longevity and infant mortality statistics, they got dramatically better from 1800 to 1890.
        dredmorbius 10y ago
        NYC mortality rates 1800-2005 https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/MsQfdPAn_0XUdZUoReBfbg https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/MsQfdPAn_0XUdZUoReBfbg I'd call it 1880-1920, but yes.
- CydeWeys 10y ago
  > Most of the modern increase in life expectancy has come from clean water, plenty of nutritious food, and vaccines against childhood diseases. All of which you need civilization to properly achieve, and which aren't available to purely hunter-gatherer societies.
  - dredmorbius 10y ago
    Many of the problems necessitating the solutions don't become critical until you've got civilization in the first place. A nomadic culture in a moderate climate doesn't cluster to the point it has contaminated drinking water, is floating in its own effluvia, or is breeding epidemics. Mid-ninteenth century London and New York were pretty horrible. No freshwater supplies, no sewers, no waste removal, horse-drawn transport leaving droppings, urin, and carcasses everywhere, cholera epidemics killing 50,000 people a year. Absent in-migration, London couldn't maintain its population. I'm not saying pre-ag life was easy. Simply that early industrial conditions were horrid.

Jtsummers 10y ago

Why are most of your contracted illnesses now viral and not fungal or bacterial? Because modern medicine has rendered the latter two nearly obsolete. People who contract them get treated for them and they're less likely to spread throughout your community. Even many viral infections are far less common thanks to vaccinations and early intervention/isolation. > Almost all of my illnesses have been contracted either at work or from my partner who contracted it at work. And this is a social problem, not a "modern medicine" problem. Idiots need to stop going to the office sick. One dumbass knocked out half my office 3 or 4 years back. Came in with a cold, 15 people sick over the next two weeks.

koide 10y ago
And the idiots' bosses should encourage them not to go instead of pressuring them so much that they feel they have to go even when sick so they don't lose their job or their status. It's a complex problem, it's not just the sick to blame.

Vraxx 10y ago

Interesting anecdote, although, as I never get tired of stressing, other people do exist and have different experiences. People are kept alive all the time by medicinal techniques that have been developed and just because your doctor visits have not saved your life does not mean that many others have not experienced the wonders of modern medicine. Also you're taking for granted all of the illnesses you avoided merely by being vaccinated for them as a child. Almost nobody in developed society contracts polio anymore, but that doesn't make it any less lethal to groups not acquainted with modern medicine.

a_c_s 10y ago

You're ignoring all of the diseases you don't get due to vaccinations and other eradication efforts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diseases_eliminated_from_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_diseases_eliminated_fr... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_diseases https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eradication_of_infectious_dise...

Spooky23 10y ago

You're fortunate. When your hunter-gatherer alter ego gets wounded by a spear or an animal, there's a high probability that that wound is going to get infected, and a moderate probability that the wound turn into sepsis and kill you.

openasocket 10y ago

That's because you've been vaccinated and centuries of disease outbreak management have decimated the prevalence of infectious disease. You're also far more likely to have medical problems from a hunter-gatherer lifestyle: frequent activity can lead to injury, frequent contact with animal life, and poor food sanitation. Not to mention that once you get sick you can't produce food, which means your tribe has to support you. Which would be okay if food is plentiful and only a few people are sick, but if there's an epidemic suddenly your half your tribe is sick and no one can gather food for the next two weeks.

CydeWeys 10y ago

I'm sorry that you catch a cold every so often, but there's double digit chances that you would have already died prior to reaching adulthood in a hunter-gatherer society. The two aren't remotely comparable. And while anecdata don't prove points, let me present to you my opposing anecdote. I recently fractured my tibia in a fall. I had it properly treated by doctors, and not quite three months afterwards all that remains of my injury is a slight limp, which should be gone in another month with continuing physical therapy. Meanwhile, in a hunter-gatherer society, this type of injury would likely result in permanent lifelong lameness, and could easily be a death sentence. But for me it was just an inconvenience -- I only even lost a total of three days of work, because modern civilization thankfully affords me the opportunity to be a knowledge worker. I can deal with catching the occasional cold.