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> no company would offer bitcoin transactions without tracking for fear of asset seizure. No company within the EU perhaps, but that doesn't mean you can't jus

> no company would offer bitcoin transactions without tracking for fear of asset seizure. No company within the EU perhaps, but that doesn't mean you can't just send the money to a russian exchange like BTC-e who really doesn't care what the source is and accepts things like webmoney, libertyreserve, etc. Which are trivial to get into if you know what you're doing.

exelius 10y ago
> things like webmoney, libertyreserve, etc. Which are trivial to get into if you know what you're doing. And have very few protections for consumers, and the percentage of the population that "know what [they]'re doing" is actually pretty low. So yeah, if you're into criminal activity it's still pretty easy to do. But it also means it's easier for law enforcement to watch those avenues of access to catch criminal activity in the act.
- ultramancool 10y ago
  Bitcoin has literally zero protections for consumers, so if you're trying to buy bitcoin, you're basically already on that boat.
  - shmapf 10y ago
    It's not equivalent. When you own bitcoin it's up to yourself to protect it. In the regulated currencies it's not under your control.
    - ultramancool 10y ago
      Sorry? I think we're talking about entirely different things. Basically what I'm saying is that the same people who are interested enough to buy bitcoin are often times the same people who will know how to get it, even if they have to go outside of more traditional and direct means.
tmptmp 10y ago
I have a doubt: say you are a UK citizen, you can send BTC to the Russian exchange but what in return would you get from that russian exchange and how would you evade the UK government? Curious to know. Unless you succeed to make them ship "some products" to you in some other country where BTC is "legitimate" such a transfer would be one-way only.
- ultramancool 10y ago
  Basically using a proxy product which is easy to exchange on both sides. You can trade in various forms of web currencies like WebMoney, PerfectMoney, etc. The standard sketchy web wallets, you just find a local exchanger for one of those of which there are plenty and then buy and sell PM/WM through them, then send that PM/WM to your exchange. At the point you've got the money into a russian exchange, you're pretty much safe. Just trade it and draw it to your bitcoin wallet.
  - tmptmp 10y ago
    >>At the point you've got the money into a russian exchange, you're pretty much safe. That's not a point that bothers me. I understand that I can easily get my money into a Russian or other such exchange. What bothers me is being a UK citizen, what can I do with that money? >>Just trade it and draw it to your bitcoin wallet. What to trade? How to purchase physical goods? e.g. a TV or something else? Can I at least get my money back in the form of other tradable currency in the UK? I don't see a way to use bitcoins outside the drugs market as far as purchasing physical goods are concerned unless the government approves bitcoins. Please correct me if I am wrong. edit: typo, clarification
feklar 10y ago
Webmoney is Russian paypal in that they seize accounts all the time and demand notarized ID if you move more than a few hundred dollars. Libertyreserve is long gone and the owner(s) in prison. They also seized accounts if you moved over $9k without ID. Using BTC-e is essentially rolling the dice. The Russian/Bulgarian operators can disappear at anytime they like with the entire current volume they are anonymous and also not insured, existing on rep only which doesn't mean very much. They could easily put up a million worth of bitcoin as insurance somewhere held in a trust and refuse to daily trade over that insured amount, that they don't says they plan to just disappear one day.
- ultramancool 10y ago
  > Libertyreserve is long gone and the owner(s) in prison Sorry, I meant PerfectMoney. Are they at risk of disappearing? Probably, but it's essentially an exchange medium to you. > Using BTC-e is essentially rolling the dice. The Russian/Bulgarian operators can disappear at anytime they like with the entire current volume they are anonymous and also not insured, existing on rep only which doesn't mean very much. They could easily put up a million worth of bitcoin as insurance somewhere held in a trust and refuse to daily trade over that insured amount, that they don't says they plan to just disappear one day. You don't need to have money in the exchange for that long, just move it in and out. Yes, it's a risk, but a fairly small one as long as you don't store money in the exchange long term.
  - charlesdm 10y ago
    > You don't need to have money in the exchange for that long, just move it in and out. Out to where? Your EU bank account? Oh wait..

exelius 10y ago

> things like webmoney, libertyreserve, etc. Which are trivial to get into if you know what you're doing. And have very few protections for consumers, and the percentage of the population that "know what [they]'re doing" is actually pretty low. So yeah, if you're into criminal activity it's still pretty easy to do. But it also means it's easier for law enforcement to watch those avenues of access to catch criminal activity in the act.

ultramancool 10y ago
Bitcoin has literally zero protections for consumers, so if you're trying to buy bitcoin, you're basically already on that boat.
- shmapf 10y ago
  It's not equivalent. When you own bitcoin it's up to yourself to protect it. In the regulated currencies it's not under your control.
  - ultramancool 10y ago
    Sorry? I think we're talking about entirely different things. Basically what I'm saying is that the same people who are interested enough to buy bitcoin are often times the same people who will know how to get it, even if they have to go outside of more traditional and direct means.

tmptmp 10y ago

I have a doubt: say you are a UK citizen, you can send BTC to the Russian exchange but what in return would you get from that russian exchange and how would you evade the UK government? Curious to know. Unless you succeed to make them ship "some products" to you in some other country where BTC is "legitimate" such a transfer would be one-way only.

ultramancool 10y ago
Basically using a proxy product which is easy to exchange on both sides. You can trade in various forms of web currencies like WebMoney, PerfectMoney, etc. The standard sketchy web wallets, you just find a local exchanger for one of those of which there are plenty and then buy and sell PM/WM through them, then send that PM/WM to your exchange. At the point you've got the money into a russian exchange, you're pretty much safe. Just trade it and draw it to your bitcoin wallet.
- tmptmp 10y ago
  >>At the point you've got the money into a russian exchange, you're pretty much safe. That's not a point that bothers me. I understand that I can easily get my money into a Russian or other such exchange. What bothers me is being a UK citizen, what can I do with that money? >>Just trade it and draw it to your bitcoin wallet. What to trade? How to purchase physical goods? e.g. a TV or something else? Can I at least get my money back in the form of other tradable currency in the UK? I don't see a way to use bitcoins outside the drugs market as far as purchasing physical goods are concerned unless the government approves bitcoins. Please correct me if I am wrong. edit: typo, clarification

feklar 10y ago

Webmoney is Russian paypal in that they seize accounts all the time and demand notarized ID if you move more than a few hundred dollars. Libertyreserve is long gone and the owner(s) in prison. They also seized accounts if you moved over $9k without ID. Using BTC-e is essentially rolling the dice. The Russian/Bulgarian operators can disappear at anytime they like with the entire current volume they are anonymous and also not insured, existing on rep only which doesn't mean very much. They could easily put up a million worth of bitcoin as insurance somewhere held in a trust and refuse to daily trade over that insured amount, that they don't says they plan to just disappear one day.

ultramancool 10y ago
> Libertyreserve is long gone and the owner(s) in prison Sorry, I meant PerfectMoney. Are they at risk of disappearing? Probably, but it's essentially an exchange medium to you. > Using BTC-e is essentially rolling the dice. The Russian/Bulgarian operators can disappear at anytime they like with the entire current volume they are anonymous and also not insured, existing on rep only which doesn't mean very much. They could easily put up a million worth of bitcoin as insurance somewhere held in a trust and refuse to daily trade over that insured amount, that they don't says they plan to just disappear one day. You don't need to have money in the exchange for that long, just move it in and out. Yes, it's a risk, but a fairly small one as long as you don't store money in the exchange long term.
- charlesdm 10y ago
  > You don't need to have money in the exchange for that long, just move it in and out. Out to where? Your EU bank account? Oh wait..