5 ms·

A Remote Pacific Nation, Threatened by Rising Seas

43 points by MrJagil 10y ago

noobermin 10y ago
I am a Pacific islander in the US. While I mostly am "American" in my personality and values, the rest of my family lives on an island not too far from Kiribati. The thing is for any group of people, it's hard to really think with a full heart (that is, will full sympathy) for people outside our eye reach. Moreover, it doesn't help that these are tiny populations. The article says these are thousands of people. The people in my island, Palau number around 16,000. It is problematic, however, that climate change will be effected by nations who will not see direct consequences, at least not early on, so the hope that out of their own self interest or otherwise act to stem the change unlikely.
spraak 10y ago
Sad to see people holding so strongly to a faith not their own (christianity). I wonder how the same people would operate without it Edit: is most of HN christian? I'm surprised to be downvoted about this
- qsymmachus 10y ago
  "Stop liking things that I don't like"
  - spraak 10y ago
    Eh, more like "stop forcing people to like the things you like" christianity was undoubtedly coerced upon them
    - sp332 10y ago
      Your second comment is dead-on, not sure why it's getting downvoted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Kiribati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Kiribati However, Christianity does not really give a reason for them to stay. I suspect it's just an excuse not to face up to the truth. If they stuck to Bahá'í (which was invented in 1844 and introduced to the island in the early 1900's) they would probably have had the same reaction.
      - jessaustin 10y ago
        No mention of "coercion" at your link.
        sp332 10y ago
        I admit I don't really understand the timeline given on these pages. But I don't think I misunderstood "deported" and "banished". More detail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith_in_Kiribati#Incidents_related_to_the_first_native_Bah.C3.A1.27.C3.AD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith_in_Ki...
        jessaustin 10y ago
        The incidents described at that new link are certainly regrettable, however the discussion above seemed to concern the actions of Christian missionaries in the nineteenth century, not random Catholic Kiribatis in the 1950s. It's not as though Bahá'í was a native religion of Kiribati.
    - aetherson 10y ago
      It might have been coerced on their great grandparents. Everyone living was born into a mostly Christian population. They presumably would react to your assertion that they should go back to selected beliefs of their ancestors much the same way that you would react if someone demanded that you do the same.
- jessaustin 10y ago
  ...is most of HN christian? Most of HN don't make hilariously bad assumptions about situations entirely outside our ken. Even if we were to accept your simple-minded tale of heartless colonialism, who are you to judge that native religions were in any sense better?
  - spraak 10y ago
    I don't see the assumption in my question - I see that many people pose a question as a way of making a statement, but really, I am just curious how they'd operate differently if they weren't holding so strongly to christianity
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      One imagines that the votes referred rather to your statement beginning, "Sad to see..." Typically that idiom implies a judgment, which in this case no one really has the standing to make. It was your followup comment, apparently meant to explain this judgment, that included the adverb "undoubtedly" coupled with an erroneous assumption.
  - prawn 10y ago
    It's possible and likely that they think that neither is better than the other, but with a change from one to the other, some cultural elements are lost and that can be a shame.
- placeybordeaux 10y ago
  Their faith is mentioned only twice and both in passing in the article. The specific religion they have doesn't seem to be highly relevant. Loss of indigenous religion can be sad, but it is no where near as bad as an entire loss of a homeland and a large diaspora of the population. Focusing on their religion and why they have it makes it seem like that is the only issue you care about.
  - spraak 10y ago
    In passing? The article states that some people aren't willing to leave the islands because they feel that God will save them
ktRolster 10y ago
Cool thing about the Kiribati language, the 'ti' makes an 's' sound. So if someone is named "Sam", in Kiribati you would spell his name "Tiam."
- knodi123 10y ago
  unless written kiribati was natively developed to use the english alphabet, it seems like someone just did a really crap job of romanizing their language.
  - guard-of-terra 10y ago
    Not necessarily. Maybe this is less than optimal for loanwords, but why have consonants in your alphabet that you never use? Might also have grammatical meaning (e.g. t staying t in every form of a word) For example, in Russian pronunciation, you might definitely confuse 'ti' for 'si'. If Russian wouldn't have the real 's' consonant (or 'ц'), it would make sense to transliterate 's' as 'ti'.
    - knodi123 10y ago
      I don't understand. If the people of kiribati (pronounced KEE-ree-bas) have an S sound, then it makes sense to romanize their language so that words endings with an S sound end with an S letter... If they have a "ti" sound as well, then by all means keep the T and the I, or even glyph them together... But english is (more or less) a phonetic language. If you're romanizing a foreign language, and it doesn't come out more or less phonetic, then.... try again. It doesn't cost anything to keep an "s" in the prospective alphabet.
      - niftich 10y ago
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbertese_language#Phonology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbertese_language#Phonology the "s sound" (IPA [s]) is essentially an allophone of their "t sound" (IPA [t]) before 'i'. Since they don't perceive them to be distinct phonemes, there's no need for a separate letter.
oinksoft 10y ago
Tuvalu is in similar straits.
- vacri 10y ago
  ... I can't tell if that's a pun or not. Well played!
  - oinksoft 10y ago
    Not a pun, just what this immediately reminded me of :) I've always found it astonishing that people would live on an island with such a low maximum elevation.
MrJagil 10y ago
Here's the google maps link: https://www.google.dk/maps?q=Kiribati&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYiY2wgd3NAhXKAJoKHSafA_oQ_AUICSgC https://www.google.dk/maps?q=Kiribati&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ved... Nearby is Jarvis Island, with the sorry story of Squire Flockton that I was drawn to for some reason: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=47059637 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=470596...
niftich 10y ago
Interesting times ahead. The purchase of the tract in Fiji is an ordinary land deal and does not imply a transfer of sovereignty. If the population of the Republic of Kiribati eventually relocates to this tract, what will be their legal status in Fiji? Citizens of Fiji, or refugees? If the islands of Kiribati are underwater, other governments may come to challenge their claim to vast amounts of the Pacific [1] [1] Maritime boundaries and claims: https://imgur.com/KbGj1mC https://imgur.com/KbGj1mC
- coredog64 10y ago
  My solution would be for the US to purchase Kiribati and relocate the citizens to the Texas coast. The EEZ would then be turned into a conversation zone. The USN would use it as an MOA to keep out the tuna fleets. Once Kiribati is under water, those EEZs would turn into international waters. It has been a few years, but IIRC there isn't much impingement of other nations' EEZs on that of Kiribati.
more_corn 10y ago
“We are Christians,” she said. “So we don’t believe that God could have given us this world and then take it away.” Scientists: We're here to warn you about the flood. Locals: No thanks, god will provide. International aid workers: We're here to save you from the flood. Locals: No thanks, god will provide. Rescue workers: Quick, get in, it's your last chance! Locals: No thanks, god will provide. Drowning Locals: God! why have you forsaken us? God: I tried to save you three times. What more do you want?
aembleton 10y ago
I can recommend 'The Sex Lives of Cannibals' if you'd like to know more about Kiribati: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sex-Lives-Cannibals-Equatorial-Pacific/dp/0767915305/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1467760541&sr=1-1&keywords=the+sex+lives+of+cannibals https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sex-Lives-Cannibals-Equatorial-Paci...
aaron695 10y ago
This is nothing compared to the people who die from lack of access to cheap energy, each year, right now. It's interesting in 30+ years that island's might disappear. But I'd be surprised if it isn't solvable with 30+ year tech. (It's solvable with current tech, just expensive)
- noobermin 10y ago
  >This is nothing compared to the people who die from lack of access to cheap energy, each year, right now. 60%[0] of greenhouse emissions don't come from the worst of developing countries, so I doubt that many are in those countries are "dying" from a lack of access to cheap energy. 6000 people is a small number. You do risk losing a culture and people, but is the convenience of billions worth the culture of few thousand? I suppose that is a judgement call. Regardless, it's not like climate change won't affect the billions, it will. It's more like the islanders here will be the first victims. [0] Added up the numbers from the top ten emitters for greenhouse gases. Brazil and Indonesia are included in this list for their aggressive burning of forest for farmland. Indonesia and Brazil aren't quite "old world" countries, but I doubt access to petrol is the least of their problems. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/21/countries-responsible-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/21/countrie...

43 points by MrJagil 10y ago

I am a Pacific islander in the US. While I mostly am "American" in my personality and values, the rest of my family lives on an island not too far from Kiribati. The thing is for any group of people, it's hard to really think with a full heart (that is, will full sympathy) for people outside our eye reach. Moreover, it doesn't help that these are tiny populations. The article says these are thousands of people. The people in my island, Palau number around 16,000. It is problematic, however, that climate change will be effected by nations who will not see direct consequences, at least not early on, so the hope that out of their own self interest or otherwise act to stem the change unlikely.

spraak 10y ago

Sad to see people holding so strongly to a faith not their own (christianity). I wonder how the same people would operate without it Edit: is most of HN christian? I'm surprised to be downvoted about this

qsymmachus 10y ago
"Stop liking things that I don't like"
- spraak 10y ago
  Eh, more like "stop forcing people to like the things you like" christianity was undoubtedly coerced upon them
  - sp332 10y ago
    Your second comment is dead-on, not sure why it's getting downvoted. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Kiribati https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Kiribati However, Christianity does not really give a reason for them to stay. I suspect it's just an excuse not to face up to the truth. If they stuck to Bahá'í (which was invented in 1844 and introduced to the island in the early 1900's) they would probably have had the same reaction.
    - jessaustin 10y ago
      No mention of "coercion" at your link.
      - sp332 10y ago
        I admit I don't really understand the timeline given on these pages. But I don't think I misunderstood "deported" and "banished". More detail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith_in_Kiribati#Incidents_related_to_the_first_native_Bah.C3.A1.27.C3.AD https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith_in_Ki...
        jessaustin 10y ago
        The incidents described at that new link are certainly regrettable, however the discussion above seemed to concern the actions of Christian missionaries in the nineteenth century, not random Catholic Kiribatis in the 1950s. It's not as though Bahá'í was a native religion of Kiribati.
  - aetherson 10y ago
    It might have been coerced on their great grandparents. Everyone living was born into a mostly Christian population. They presumably would react to your assertion that they should go back to selected beliefs of their ancestors much the same way that you would react if someone demanded that you do the same.
jessaustin 10y ago
...is most of HN christian? Most of HN don't make hilariously bad assumptions about situations entirely outside our ken. Even if we were to accept your simple-minded tale of heartless colonialism, who are you to judge that native religions were in any sense better?
- spraak 10y ago
  I don't see the assumption in my question - I see that many people pose a question as a way of making a statement, but really, I am just curious how they'd operate differently if they weren't holding so strongly to christianity
  - jessaustin 10y ago
    One imagines that the votes referred rather to your statement beginning, "Sad to see..." Typically that idiom implies a judgment, which in this case no one really has the standing to make. It was your followup comment, apparently meant to explain this judgment, that included the adverb "undoubtedly" coupled with an erroneous assumption.
- prawn 10y ago
  It's possible and likely that they think that neither is better than the other, but with a change from one to the other, some cultural elements are lost and that can be a shame.
placeybordeaux 10y ago
Their faith is mentioned only twice and both in passing in the article. The specific religion they have doesn't seem to be highly relevant. Loss of indigenous religion can be sad, but it is no where near as bad as an entire loss of a homeland and a large diaspora of the population. Focusing on their religion and why they have it makes it seem like that is the only issue you care about.
- spraak 10y ago
  In passing? The article states that some people aren't willing to leave the islands because they feel that God will save them

ktRolster 10y ago

Cool thing about the Kiribati language, the 'ti' makes an 's' sound. So if someone is named "Sam", in Kiribati you would spell his name "Tiam."

knodi123 10y ago
unless written kiribati was natively developed to use the english alphabet, it seems like someone just did a really crap job of romanizing their language.
- guard-of-terra 10y ago
  Not necessarily. Maybe this is less than optimal for loanwords, but why have consonants in your alphabet that you never use? Might also have grammatical meaning (e.g. t staying t in every form of a word) For example, in Russian pronunciation, you might definitely confuse 'ti' for 'si'. If Russian wouldn't have the real 's' consonant (or 'ц'), it would make sense to transliterate 's' as 'ti'.
  - knodi123 10y ago
    I don't understand. If the people of kiribati (pronounced KEE-ree-bas) have an S sound, then it makes sense to romanize their language so that words endings with an S sound end with an S letter... If they have a "ti" sound as well, then by all means keep the T and the I, or even glyph them together... But english is (more or less) a phonetic language. If you're romanizing a foreign language, and it doesn't come out more or less phonetic, then.... try again. It doesn't cost anything to keep an "s" in the prospective alphabet.
    - niftich 10y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbertese_language#Phonology https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilbertese_language#Phonology the "s sound" (IPA [s]) is essentially an allophone of their "t sound" (IPA [t]) before 'i'. Since they don't perceive them to be distinct phonemes, there's no need for a separate letter.

oinksoft 10y ago

Tuvalu is in similar straits.

vacri 10y ago
... I can't tell if that's a pun or not. Well played!
- oinksoft 10y ago
  Not a pun, just what this immediately reminded me of :) I've always found it astonishing that people would live on an island with such a low maximum elevation.

MrJagil 10y ago

Here's the google maps link: https://www.google.dk/maps?q=Kiribati&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjYiY2wgd3NAhXKAJoKHSafA_oQ_AUICSgC https://www.google.dk/maps?q=Kiribati&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=X&ved... Nearby is Jarvis Island, with the sorry story of Squire Flockton that I was drawn to for some reason: http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=47059637 http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GRid=470596...

niftich 10y ago

Interesting times ahead. The purchase of the tract in Fiji is an ordinary land deal and does not imply a transfer of sovereignty. If the population of the Republic of Kiribati eventually relocates to this tract, what will be their legal status in Fiji? Citizens of Fiji, or refugees? If the islands of Kiribati are underwater, other governments may come to challenge their claim to vast amounts of the Pacific [1] [1] Maritime boundaries and claims: https://imgur.com/KbGj1mC https://imgur.com/KbGj1mC

coredog64 10y ago
My solution would be for the US to purchase Kiribati and relocate the citizens to the Texas coast. The EEZ would then be turned into a conversation zone. The USN would use it as an MOA to keep out the tuna fleets. Once Kiribati is under water, those EEZs would turn into international waters. It has been a few years, but IIRC there isn't much impingement of other nations' EEZs on that of Kiribati.

more_corn 10y ago

“We are Christians,” she said. “So we don’t believe that God could have given us this world and then take it away.” Scientists: We're here to warn you about the flood. Locals: No thanks, god will provide. International aid workers: We're here to save you from the flood. Locals: No thanks, god will provide. Rescue workers: Quick, get in, it's your last chance! Locals: No thanks, god will provide. Drowning Locals: God! why have you forsaken us? God: I tried to save you three times. What more do you want?

aembleton 10y ago

I can recommend 'The Sex Lives of Cannibals' if you'd like to know more about Kiribati: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sex-Lives-Cannibals-Equatorial-Pacific/dp/0767915305/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1467760541&sr=1-1&keywords=the+sex+lives+of+cannibals https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sex-Lives-Cannibals-Equatorial-Paci...

aaron695 10y ago

This is nothing compared to the people who die from lack of access to cheap energy, each year, right now. It's interesting in 30+ years that island's might disappear. But I'd be surprised if it isn't solvable with 30+ year tech. (It's solvable with current tech, just expensive)

noobermin 10y ago
>This is nothing compared to the people who die from lack of access to cheap energy, each year, right now. 60%[0] of greenhouse emissions don't come from the worst of developing countries, so I doubt that many are in those countries are "dying" from a lack of access to cheap energy. 6000 people is a small number. You do risk losing a culture and people, but is the convenience of billions worth the culture of few thousand? I suppose that is a judgement call. Regardless, it's not like climate change won't affect the billions, it will. It's more like the islanders here will be the first victims. [0] Added up the numbers from the top ten emitters for greenhouse gases. Brazil and Indonesia are included in this list for their aggressive burning of forest for farmland. Indonesia and Brazil aren't quite "old world" countries, but I doubt access to petrol is the least of their problems. https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/21/countries-responsible-climate-change https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2011/apr/21/countrie...