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Superstition is a really big problem in India. I think it is much worse than what would be predicted purely by the poverty level. I wonder why. Another differen

Superstition is a really big problem in India. I think it is much worse than what would be predicted purely by the poverty level. I wonder why. Another difference is that while in the US, and I imagine in most countries, superstitious beliefs decline sharply with education level, the correlation seems mild or nonexistent in India. There are many people in my family with one or more post-college degrees, and they are just as superstitious as anyone else. Of course, my sample size is rather small; I'd love to see data supporting or rejecting my hunch.

rick_2047 17y ago
If your are defining Superstition as holding yagyas and poojas then yes the correlation does not exist. But I dont think those two above mentioned things are superstition at all. Like before any major step in india every one in this world like to pray to god or have some ceremony. And that provides just that and nothing else. I think educated Indian suburban people do not subscribe to Superstition in the way of tantrik and babas but they do still hold havans and poojas before doing anything important. In india we still make a swastik (or any other holy symbol) over a new computer before starting it. And that too is turned on by the elder people of the family even if they are not going to use it ever.
- ErrantX 17y ago
  I think educated Indian suburban people do not subscribe to Superstition in the way of tantrik and babas but they do still hold havans and poojas before doing anything important. In india we still make a swastik (or any other holy symbol) over a new computer before starting it. And that too is turned on by the elder people of the family even if they are not going to use it ever. I cant figure out if your agreeing with randomwalker or not :) You generally won't find that kind of superstition practiced any more in the US/UK/Europe. Although you do get a number of people either following a pseudo-science "guru" or one of the more cult-like modern religions.
  - ZeroGravitas 17y ago
    I don't know about India but I'm guessing he's talking about small superstitions like saying "bless you" after sneezes, "touch wood" (or actually touching wood) after saying something that you wouldn't want to happen or "thank god" after nearly getting hit by a bus i.e. stuff that is technically a superstition but is mostly just a cultural habit.
    - ErrantX 17y ago
      I wondered that; but what he describes seems a little more ritualistic (signs, elders etc.) than the superstitions / cultural habits (mostly why I was asking really)
      - ajju 17y ago
        The swastika sign is somewhere between a religious superstition and a cultural thing. There are folks who believe that if they don't do that sort of thing it's a bad omen and there are folks who do it only out of respect for tradition. Having an elder 'inaugurate' something is mostly a result of the "respect for elders" ethos in Indian society. This sounds pretty benign, and in many ways it is a good thing, but it has its downsides. I know people in my generation who couldn't (wouldn't) get married to someone unless their grandparents approved the person!
andrewcooke 17y ago
You're aware of the amount of religion in the USA, right? I think India may be more diverse in its beliefs, but then it seems (from outside at least) to be more diverse in absolutely everything else as well! (no criticism intended - I am very impressed with the way India manages to stay a relatively coherent nation).
ajju 17y ago
IMO three things contribute to higher superstition. 1) People are more religious, even in the younger generation. (Having said that, it is important to note that religious != fundamentalist for most young, educated Indians. At least in my circles, religious folks will 'pay respects' to any place of worship they pass by including churches, mosques and temples of various types.) 2) Education in America involves a lot of critical thinking. In many classes you are specifically required to challenge an author, debate and you are encouraged to contradict the teacher. There is almost none of this in India. To me, this is something of a tragedy. I went to a small, secular school with excellent teachers (relatively speaking) and I can count on one hand the number of teachers who encouraged debate in class. It doesn't help that many 'good' schools in India are run by religious organizations like the Catholic church or religious trusts. 3) Until not too long ago, luck was a big factor in success in India. Opportunities were few and far between. When efforts are de-linked from rewards, I suspect many people start subscribing to superstitions. Edit: I thought of one more reason: 'Respect for elders' really means 'disagreeing with elders is rude' in India. Put together with a much closer knit society, this means that your elders are going to chide you constantly for disagreeing with them, and pretty much going to take it as a personal insult. Suddenly it becomes very hard to develop independent beliefs. I was fairly lucky growing up in a family where we had all manner of debates, including on religion, but I believe that's pretty atypical.
_debug_ 17y ago
> I wonder why. My take on it : The level of chaos in India is extraordinary. It is ubiquitous: the traffic, the government, and the sheer number of people being the top three things that come to mind. On top of this, the justice system is defunct. In such a situation, prayer comes naturally. Faith and arbitrary belief are mechanisms to alleviate the stress and restore mental order, to lend a semblance of "reason" and rhyme to the working of a world that seems so arbitrary and cruel. They dull the mind but they act as an antidote against the external chaos. I would guess that a sense of security and control over one's life and religiosity are anti-correlated, in any country. I would suspect that the poor, the indebted and the very ill are more likely to be religious.
plinkplonk 17y ago
"There are many people in my family with one or more post-college degrees, and they are just as superstitious as anyone else." If "religious" is equated to "superstitious" you can see just as many (educated) "superstitious" people in the USA as anywhere else. (google evangelical christianity. Not all of them are illiterate bumblers) You have "healing crusades" and prayer groups to overturn the Health Care Bill and so on in plenty. What divides religious belief from superstition? Perhaps nothing.
yummyfajitas 17y ago
Superstitions beliefs in the US are more prevalent than you think. The uneducated believe in aliens, creationism and angels. The educated believe in alternative medicine, but fear that electromagnetic RADIATIONOMFG causes cancer and that vaccines cause autism. Instead of Swami Krishna using parlor tricks, we have Jenny McCarthy and Oprah pushing pop books that have scientific words in the title. The only difference between Indian and US superstitions is that US superstitions use scientific words rather than mystical words. "Evil spirits caused the tsunami" is no less superstition than "global warming caused the tsunami".
- anonjon 17y ago
  "Evil spirits caused the tsunami" is no less superstition than "global warming caused the tsunami". Well. When you think about it, global warming couldn't cause a tsunami, whereas evil spirits could potentially cause a tsunami (if they existed). They aren't equivalent statements. So the first one is potentially true, but incredible, and the second is simply incorrect. If your proposal is that evil spirits and global warming are equivalent beliefs, I don't think so. Global warming is actually testable (either the globe is warming or it isn't); you can't test for evil spirits. Global warming might be incorrect, and it might be supported by unfounded evidence, but it isn't superstitious.
  - yummyfajitas 17y ago
    My proposal is not that global warming is a superstition. My proposal is that many westerners apply mystical thinking, but use scientific words. For some westerners, global warming, chemicals and emf are mysterious and poorly understood forces which cause all sorts of bad things. This is the essence of superstition and mysticism.
    - anonjon 17y ago
      Very well, I think I agree with you then. My only problem is that the majority of beliefs that we rely on in a daily fashion become superstition, even though they could hypothetically not be. Suppose I only superficially know how my car works, for example. Would a belief in my car be treated as a superstitious belief? (Lets say I believe it will get me to work). If not, where do we draw the line between 'magical' thinking and actual knowledge?

rick_2047 17y ago

If your are defining Superstition as holding yagyas and poojas then yes the correlation does not exist. But I dont think those two above mentioned things are superstition at all. Like before any major step in india every one in this world like to pray to god or have some ceremony. And that provides just that and nothing else. I think educated Indian suburban people do not subscribe to Superstition in the way of tantrik and babas but they do still hold havans and poojas before doing anything important. In india we still make a swastik (or any other holy symbol) over a new computer before starting it. And that too is turned on by the elder people of the family even if they are not going to use it ever.

ErrantX 17y ago
I think educated Indian suburban people do not subscribe to Superstition in the way of tantrik and babas but they do still hold havans and poojas before doing anything important. In india we still make a swastik (or any other holy symbol) over a new computer before starting it. And that too is turned on by the elder people of the family even if they are not going to use it ever. I cant figure out if your agreeing with randomwalker or not :) You generally won't find that kind of superstition practiced any more in the US/UK/Europe. Although you do get a number of people either following a pseudo-science "guru" or one of the more cult-like modern religions.
- ZeroGravitas 17y ago
  I don't know about India but I'm guessing he's talking about small superstitions like saying "bless you" after sneezes, "touch wood" (or actually touching wood) after saying something that you wouldn't want to happen or "thank god" after nearly getting hit by a bus i.e. stuff that is technically a superstition but is mostly just a cultural habit.
  - ErrantX 17y ago
    I wondered that; but what he describes seems a little more ritualistic (signs, elders etc.) than the superstitions / cultural habits (mostly why I was asking really)
    - ajju 17y ago
      The swastika sign is somewhere between a religious superstition and a cultural thing. There are folks who believe that if they don't do that sort of thing it's a bad omen and there are folks who do it only out of respect for tradition. Having an elder 'inaugurate' something is mostly a result of the "respect for elders" ethos in Indian society. This sounds pretty benign, and in many ways it is a good thing, but it has its downsides. I know people in my generation who couldn't (wouldn't) get married to someone unless their grandparents approved the person!

andrewcooke 17y ago

You're aware of the amount of religion in the USA, right? I think India may be more diverse in its beliefs, but then it seems (from outside at least) to be more diverse in absolutely everything else as well! (no criticism intended - I am very impressed with the way India manages to stay a relatively coherent nation).

ajju 17y ago

IMO three things contribute to higher superstition. 1) People are more religious, even in the younger generation. (Having said that, it is important to note that religious != fundamentalist for most young, educated Indians. At least in my circles, religious folks will 'pay respects' to any place of worship they pass by including churches, mosques and temples of various types.) 2) Education in America involves a lot of critical thinking. In many classes you are specifically required to challenge an author, debate and you are encouraged to contradict the teacher. There is almost none of this in India. To me, this is something of a tragedy. I went to a small, secular school with excellent teachers (relatively speaking) and I can count on one hand the number of teachers who encouraged debate in class. It doesn't help that many 'good' schools in India are run by religious organizations like the Catholic church or religious trusts. 3) Until not too long ago, luck was a big factor in success in India. Opportunities were few and far between. When efforts are de-linked from rewards, I suspect many people start subscribing to superstitions. Edit: I thought of one more reason: 'Respect for elders' really means 'disagreeing with elders is rude' in India. Put together with a much closer knit society, this means that your elders are going to chide you constantly for disagreeing with them, and pretty much going to take it as a personal insult. Suddenly it becomes very hard to develop independent beliefs. I was fairly lucky growing up in a family where we had all manner of debates, including on religion, but I believe that's pretty atypical.

_debug_ 17y ago

> I wonder why. My take on it : The level of chaos in India is extraordinary. It is ubiquitous: the traffic, the government, and the sheer number of people being the top three things that come to mind. On top of this, the justice system is defunct. In such a situation, prayer comes naturally. Faith and arbitrary belief are mechanisms to alleviate the stress and restore mental order, to lend a semblance of "reason" and rhyme to the working of a world that seems so arbitrary and cruel. They dull the mind but they act as an antidote against the external chaos. I would guess that a sense of security and control over one's life and religiosity are anti-correlated, in any country. I would suspect that the poor, the indebted and the very ill are more likely to be religious.

plinkplonk 17y ago

"There are many people in my family with one or more post-college degrees, and they are just as superstitious as anyone else." If "religious" is equated to "superstitious" you can see just as many (educated) "superstitious" people in the USA as anywhere else. (google evangelical christianity. Not all of them are illiterate bumblers) You have "healing crusades" and prayer groups to overturn the Health Care Bill and so on in plenty. What divides religious belief from superstition? Perhaps nothing.

yummyfajitas 17y ago

Superstitions beliefs in the US are more prevalent than you think. The uneducated believe in aliens, creationism and angels. The educated believe in alternative medicine, but fear that electromagnetic RADIATIONOMFG causes cancer and that vaccines cause autism. Instead of Swami Krishna using parlor tricks, we have Jenny McCarthy and Oprah pushing pop books that have scientific words in the title. The only difference between Indian and US superstitions is that US superstitions use scientific words rather than mystical words. "Evil spirits caused the tsunami" is no less superstition than "global warming caused the tsunami".

anonjon 17y ago
"Evil spirits caused the tsunami" is no less superstition than "global warming caused the tsunami". Well. When you think about it, global warming couldn't cause a tsunami, whereas evil spirits could potentially cause a tsunami (if they existed). They aren't equivalent statements. So the first one is potentially true, but incredible, and the second is simply incorrect. If your proposal is that evil spirits and global warming are equivalent beliefs, I don't think so. Global warming is actually testable (either the globe is warming or it isn't); you can't test for evil spirits. Global warming might be incorrect, and it might be supported by unfounded evidence, but it isn't superstitious.
- yummyfajitas 17y ago
  My proposal is not that global warming is a superstition. My proposal is that many westerners apply mystical thinking, but use scientific words. For some westerners, global warming, chemicals and emf are mysterious and poorly understood forces which cause all sorts of bad things. This is the essence of superstition and mysticism.
  - anonjon 17y ago
    Very well, I think I agree with you then. My only problem is that the majority of beliefs that we rely on in a daily fashion become superstition, even though they could hypothetically not be. Suppose I only superficially know how my car works, for example. Would a belief in my car be treated as a superstitious belief? (Lets say I believe it will get me to work). If not, where do we draw the line between 'magical' thinking and actual knowledge?