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> "Younger people have grown up less isolated in a much more connected world" The young are just as 'connected' post-Brexit as they were before. Just because,

> "Younger people have grown up less isolated in a much more connected world" The young are just as 'connected' post-Brexit as they were before. Just because, heavens above, they have to sign a few forms to get a visa to work in a different country doesn't mean they are incapable of doing so. I'm 32. I voted to Leave. It's nothing to do with being part of Europe. I still see myself as European. The issue on the table is whether to be part of the EU. EU != Europe.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
If you have to enter a country through a checkpoint as a foreigner, then you are not a member of that country. We can feel any way we want. In the utilitarian sense, Britain will not be a 'part of' Europe by law. Its not just a 'few forms' if the other country decides to change the rules. It can become difficult, expensive or impossible depending on the political climate. Make no mistake, this is a huge shift.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "Britain will not be a 'part of' Europe by law." Europe is a continent. A continent that existed before the European Steel and Coal Community started in 1951. Britain is just as much a part of that continent as any other European country. > "If you have to enter a country through a checkpoint as a foreigner, then you are not a member of that country." If you get a work visa, it doesn't matter what type of passport you hold when you cross the border, the activity you'll be performing in the country will be same as before.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Ok I guess we're all 'part of' planet earth too. Not a category that provides any meaningful utilitarian value. And I guess I'm making the point that a work visa works, until it doesn't. At the whim of the host country.
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago
      > "Not a category that provides any meaningful utilitarian value." The point is membership of the EU is not what qualifies a country as European. Even if it's stating the obvious it's worth stating as some people seem to think being anti-EU is being anti-European. Furthermore, the EU is not the only pan-European organisation. Heard of the Council of Europe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe Or the OSCE? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_Co-operation_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_... Both are important pan-European institutions, and neither of them require their members to be members of the EU.
misnome 10y ago
Evidently you know something the rest of us don't about how easy it will be to get work visas. Will the 52% who voted largely on immigration accept freedom of labour and movement? And if not, and we had, say, a points-based system for everybody, why would other countries want to be generous? > I voted to Leave. Why?
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "Will the 52% who voted largely on immigration accept freedom of labour and movement?" They don't need to. Look at the situation outside the EU. People move to work in many countries outside the EU without the same type of 'freedom of labour and movement' deals. If you think leaving the EU is going to stop people from getting a work visa I'd suggest you need to step back from the media spin and think about why countries would stop foreign workers from coming in when they have a skills shortage. > "Why?" The main reason was related to democracy. I've gone into this again and again on HN, so you can read my comment history if you're interested. I'd also recommend this video, as it explains some of the reasons for Leave that I agree with... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY

JoeAltmaier 10y ago

If you have to enter a country through a checkpoint as a foreigner, then you are not a member of that country. We can feel any way we want. In the utilitarian sense, Britain will not be a 'part of' Europe by law. Its not just a 'few forms' if the other country decides to change the rules. It can become difficult, expensive or impossible depending on the political climate. Make no mistake, this is a huge shift.

ZenoArrow 10y ago
> "Britain will not be a 'part of' Europe by law." Europe is a continent. A continent that existed before the European Steel and Coal Community started in 1951. Britain is just as much a part of that continent as any other European country. > "If you have to enter a country through a checkpoint as a foreigner, then you are not a member of that country." If you get a work visa, it doesn't matter what type of passport you hold when you cross the border, the activity you'll be performing in the country will be same as before.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  Ok I guess we're all 'part of' planet earth too. Not a category that provides any meaningful utilitarian value. And I guess I'm making the point that a work visa works, until it doesn't. At the whim of the host country.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    > "Not a category that provides any meaningful utilitarian value." The point is membership of the EU is not what qualifies a country as European. Even if it's stating the obvious it's worth stating as some people seem to think being anti-EU is being anti-European. Furthermore, the EU is not the only pan-European organisation. Heard of the Council of Europe? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe Or the OSCE? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_Co-operation_in_Europe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organization_for_Security_and_... Both are important pan-European institutions, and neither of them require their members to be members of the EU.

misnome 10y ago

Evidently you know something the rest of us don't about how easy it will be to get work visas. Will the 52% who voted largely on immigration accept freedom of labour and movement? And if not, and we had, say, a points-based system for everybody, why would other countries want to be generous? > I voted to Leave. Why?

ZenoArrow 10y ago
> "Will the 52% who voted largely on immigration accept freedom of labour and movement?" They don't need to. Look at the situation outside the EU. People move to work in many countries outside the EU without the same type of 'freedom of labour and movement' deals. If you think leaving the EU is going to stop people from getting a work visa I'd suggest you need to step back from the media spin and think about why countries would stop foreign workers from coming in when they have a skills shortage. > "Why?" The main reason was related to democracy. I've gone into this again and again on HN, so you can read my comment history if you're interested. I'd also recommend this video, as it explains some of the reasons for Leave that I agree with... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzNj-hH8LkY