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> Young people are just afraid of changes they cannot anticipate and have nothing to compare the status quo to. Changes with definite, visible negative consequ

by misnome 10y ago

> Young people are just afraid of changes they cannot anticipate and have nothing to compare the status quo to. Changes with definite, visible negative consequences Versus not having any clue about changes that can not even be guessed at, advertised on explicitly untrue premises? Younger people have grown up less isolated in a much more connected world, where other ways of thinking have not been so scary and alien. This isn't 1993, and despite the hints from the campaigning, having voted to leave won't make it 1993 again.

mistermann 10y ago
> Versus not having any clue about changes that can not even be guessed at, advertised on explicitly untrue premises I've seen some eye opening footage of refugees on TV and youtube - after seeing that, if someone tells me that did not occur, I'd be a little suspicious.
- misnome 10y ago
  In what sense? There is no doubt that there are large numbers of refugees; but we have partial responsibility for causing/contributing to that. I honestly believe that people don't want to leave their home unless it is serious, and that the portrayal of them all as wanting to just 'Freeload' for an 'Easy life' is nothing but Xenophobia, and FUD peddled by politicians with a personal agenda to push.
  - mistermann 10y ago
    > I honestly believe that people don't want to leave their home unless it is serious Relatively wealthy people do it all the time, why wouldn't someone living in a 3rd world country (which is pretty serious in my books)? > the portrayal of them all as wanting to just 'Freeload' for an 'Easy life' is nothing but Xenophobia, and FUD peddled by politicians with a personal agenda to push Numerous articles and people who actually live in these neighborhoods would suggest otherwise, although to be fair the host countries are doing a terrible job of integration in most cases.
lazyjones 10y ago
> Changes with definite, visible negative consequences What are you referring to? Nothing is presently known about the outcome of the negotiations with the EU. > Younger people have grown up less isolated in a much more connected world, where other ways of thinking have not been so scary and alien. Apparently "not being in the EU" is scary and alien, even though young people from Iceland, Norway and Switzerland also feel very much connected these days.
- misnome 10y ago
  > What are you referring to? Nothing is presently known about the outcome of the negotiations with the EU We can estimate likelihoods. Take e.g. Being able to travel and work in the EU. The best case scenario is maintaining the status quo, which we will certainly have to pay for, and seems to be what a lot of people voted explicitly against. (Iceland, Norway and Switzerland are all members of Schengen, and so more connected than the UK). Science and research benefit amazingly from the EU - getting more out proportionally than we put in. This also could be renegotiated, but again with a price (both literal and in implementing EU laws/directives, or freedom of movement). Meanwhile, until we know what the end state will be, who is going to want to pay large research grants or jobs to UK institutions and citizens? Meanwhile half the east coast seems to think that leaving will magically let them fish out of the sea infinitely, and I have no idea why farming thinks it was suppressed rather than subsidised by the EU.
  - emp_zealoth 10y ago
    I'm pretty sure Switzerland is not a part of Shengen - they keep their borders pretty lax most of the time (we were crossing back and forth multiple times and they only stopped us once when a guy with a huge afro was driving) Otherwise I totally agree with you
    - misnome 10y ago
      Could be - I searched to confirm and wikipedia and a couple of other pages suggested they were, but they could just "allow" the movement without officially being part of it.
ZenoArrow 10y ago
> "Younger people have grown up less isolated in a much more connected world" The young are just as 'connected' post-Brexit as they were before. Just because, heavens above, they have to sign a few forms to get a visa to work in a different country doesn't mean they are incapable of doing so. I'm 32. I voted to Leave. It's nothing to do with being part of Europe. I still see myself as European. The issue on the table is whether to be part of the EU. EU != Europe.
- JoeAltmaier 10y ago
  If you have to enter a country through a checkpoint as a foreigner, then you are not a member of that country. We can feel any way we want. In the utilitarian sense, Britain will not be a 'part of' Europe by law. Its not just a 'few forms' if the other country decides to change the rules. It can become difficult, expensive or impossible depending on the political climate. Make no mistake, this is a huge shift.
  - ZenoArrow 10y ago
    > "Britain will not be a 'part of' Europe by law." Europe is a continent. A continent that existed before the European Steel and Coal Community started in 1951. Britain is just as much a part of that continent as any other European country. > "If you have to enter a country through a checkpoint as a foreigner, then you are not a member of that country." If you get a work visa, it doesn't matter what type of passport you hold when you cross the border, the activity you'll be performing in the country will be same as before.
    - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
      Ok I guess we're all 'part of' planet earth too. Not a category that provides any meaningful utilitarian value. And I guess I'm making the point that a work visa works, until it doesn't. At the whim of the host country.
      - ZenoArrow 10y ago

by misnome 10y ago

mistermann 10y ago

> Versus not having any clue about changes that can not even be guessed at, advertised on explicitly untrue premises I've seen some eye opening footage of refugees on TV and youtube - after seeing that, if someone tells me that did not occur, I'd be a little suspicious.

misnome 10y ago
In what sense? There is no doubt that there are large numbers of refugees; but we have partial responsibility for causing/contributing to that. I honestly believe that people don't want to leave their home unless it is serious, and that the portrayal of them all as wanting to just 'Freeload' for an 'Easy life' is nothing but Xenophobia, and FUD peddled by politicians with a personal agenda to push.
- mistermann 10y ago
  > I honestly believe that people don't want to leave their home unless it is serious Relatively wealthy people do it all the time, why wouldn't someone living in a 3rd world country (which is pretty serious in my books)? > the portrayal of them all as wanting to just 'Freeload' for an 'Easy life' is nothing but Xenophobia, and FUD peddled by politicians with a personal agenda to push Numerous articles and people who actually live in these neighborhoods would suggest otherwise, although to be fair the host countries are doing a terrible job of integration in most cases.

lazyjones 10y ago

> Changes with definite, visible negative consequences What are you referring to? Nothing is presently known about the outcome of the negotiations with the EU. > Younger people have grown up less isolated in a much more connected world, where other ways of thinking have not been so scary and alien. Apparently "not being in the EU" is scary and alien, even though young people from Iceland, Norway and Switzerland also feel very much connected these days.

misnome 10y ago
> What are you referring to? Nothing is presently known about the outcome of the negotiations with the EU We can estimate likelihoods. Take e.g. Being able to travel and work in the EU. The best case scenario is maintaining the status quo, which we will certainly have to pay for, and seems to be what a lot of people voted explicitly against. (Iceland, Norway and Switzerland are all members of Schengen, and so more connected than the UK). Science and research benefit amazingly from the EU - getting more out proportionally than we put in. This also could be renegotiated, but again with a price (both literal and in implementing EU laws/directives, or freedom of movement). Meanwhile, until we know what the end state will be, who is going to want to pay large research grants or jobs to UK institutions and citizens? Meanwhile half the east coast seems to think that leaving will magically let them fish out of the sea infinitely, and I have no idea why farming thinks it was suppressed rather than subsidised by the EU.
- emp_zealoth 10y ago
  I'm pretty sure Switzerland is not a part of Shengen - they keep their borders pretty lax most of the time (we were crossing back and forth multiple times and they only stopped us once when a guy with a huge afro was driving) Otherwise I totally agree with you
  - misnome 10y ago
    Could be - I searched to confirm and wikipedia and a couple of other pages suggested they were, but they could just "allow" the movement without officially being part of it.

ZenoArrow 10y ago

> "Younger people have grown up less isolated in a much more connected world" The young are just as 'connected' post-Brexit as they were before. Just because, heavens above, they have to sign a few forms to get a visa to work in a different country doesn't mean they are incapable of doing so. I'm 32. I voted to Leave. It's nothing to do with being part of Europe. I still see myself as European. The issue on the table is whether to be part of the EU. EU != Europe.

JoeAltmaier 10y ago
If you have to enter a country through a checkpoint as a foreigner, then you are not a member of that country. We can feel any way we want. In the utilitarian sense, Britain will not be a 'part of' Europe by law. Its not just a 'few forms' if the other country decides to change the rules. It can become difficult, expensive or impossible depending on the political climate. Make no mistake, this is a huge shift.
- ZenoArrow 10y ago
  > "Britain will not be a 'part of' Europe by law." Europe is a continent. A continent that existed before the European Steel and Coal Community started in 1951. Britain is just as much a part of that continent as any other European country. > "If you have to enter a country through a checkpoint as a foreigner, then you are not a member of that country." If you get a work visa, it doesn't matter what type of passport you hold when you cross the border, the activity you'll be performing in the country will be same as before.
  - JoeAltmaier 10y ago
    Ok I guess we're all 'part of' planet earth too. Not a category that provides any meaningful utilitarian value. And I guess I'm making the point that a work visa works, until it doesn't. At the whim of the host country.
    - ZenoArrow 10y ago