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From the article: > In a large room in a nondescript modern office block in Seoul, staff from a recruitment company are staging their own funerals. Dressed in

From the article: > In a large room in a nondescript modern office block in Seoul, staff from a recruitment company are staging their own funerals. Dressed in white robes, they sit at desks and write final letters to their loved ones. Tearful sniffling becomes open weeping, barely stifled by the copious use of tissues. > The macabre ritual is a bonding exercise designed to teach them to value life. Before they get into the casket, they are shown videos of people in adversity - a cancer sufferer making the most of her final days, someone born without all her limbs who learned to swim. Showing how worse things could be is a very cheap and torturous way to build appreciation and attempt to increase morale. > The participants at this session were sent by their employer, human resources firm Staffs. "Our company has always encouraged employees to change their old ways of thinking, but it was hard to bring about any real difference," says its president, Park Chun-woong. > "I thought going inside a coffin would be such a shocking experience it would completely reset their minds for a completely fresh start in their attitudes." And also > He [Park Chun-woong, company president] also insists that his staff engage in another ritual every morning when they get to work - they must do stretching exercises together culminating in loud, joint outbursts of forced laughter. They bray uproariously, like laughing asses together. It is odd to see. Here is a much better way to improve morale and to prevent the helplessness that leads to suicides: - pay workers a livable wage - create an environment where the workday is completely and separated from the personal day - and one where it is possible for the worker to fully live their lives apart from their workplaces Then none of these charades will ever be necessary again.

jagermo 10y ago
whenever I read an article like this, I am so glad for the German labor laws. They might make it harder for employers, but they make it possible to work AND have a decent live.
- mjevans 10y ago
  For someone not from Europe; what sort of worker protections would you like to highlight (also what is the healthcare like there)?
  - jagermo 10y ago
    Regarding Healthcare, this wikipedia entry sums it up pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany Regarding the worker rights: Not only do you get a decent amount of holidays (around 30 in most companies, with additional free days for parents), but you can also take up to 14 months leave after childbirth (both father and mother, but combined not 14 months each and one person has to take at least 2 months to get the full amount). Your company has to offer you the job if you come back. You can't get fired on a whim if you didn't do anything wrong. Most jobs will have to give you a 3 to 6 months notice (depending on how long you were working there). Companies have to pay at least 8,50 Euro per hour. The law says that you are not allowed to work more than eight hours a day, however exceptions are possible to some extend.
    - Loic 10y ago
      The 8h/day rule is an average per week if you are working 6 days a week, this is because the maximum work per week is 48h. Usually you work 5 days, so you fall in the rule that you must not be above 48h/week and a maximum of 10h/day. If you work in shifts, some other rules apply but at the end, you cannot go over the 48h/week on average and have special "recovery" days. But in Germany you have a lot of agreements for let say metal workers or people in the chemical industry. In some cases, the official week is only 37h or even 35h long.
      - pluma 10y ago
        It's actually even more involved than that. For example there needs to be a 24 hour down period per week and there are mandatory breaks an employee is required to take by law (refusing to take a break, even voluntarily, puts the employer in violation with the law). I'd say that other than civil servants, people working in the "Handwerk" (a German concept that includes various industrial jobs and skilled crafts, literally "manual labour" but often implying specialised expertise) have it best as they typically work under union contracts and have fairly tight regulations. OTOH loan workers tend to have it worst: loan workers bypass a lot of the labour laws and often get all of the drawbacks of being self-employed without the benefits of actual free agency. They're often hired to replace permanent employees, so they're sometimes met with hostility from their colleagues and they have no job security and often no way to transfer to a permanent position (both because that's often exactly what they're there to replace and because they're often under non-compete contracts that forbid them from doing that). Agency work also tends to be pretty bad, especially for designers: you're often expected to work unpaid overtime and there is a lot of pressure keeping people from exercising their rights or asking for a raise. I've routinely seen designers work weekends and massive overtime (think 12 hours, not 10) for months on end. The worst story I heard was of a 32 hour day (working on a regular day until the next morning and then leaving "on time" the next day). Note that not every agency is like this, but they exist and it's taken for granted that you have to "eat dirt" if you really want to work in the industry. This especially used to be a problem with internships but thanks to some changes to a few laws interns have it pretty good these days (e.g. "voluntary" interns have to be paid minimum wage, making them a lot less cost efficient than they used to be). Also, of course, almost none of the labour protection laws apply to leadership roles (typically C-level jobs). The reasoning behind this probably being that if you run a company having to take time off can get in the way. Sadly this also means there are some strange corner cases for founders (e.g. you get almost none of the maternity protection).
- paulojreis 10y ago
  In Portugal, we have some "theoretically" restrictive labor laws, supposedly very protective towards the employee. Still, everyday you'll hear about someone being told that he/she should feel lucky to even have a job, let alone a salary (because, yes, unpaid stuff is also common). My point being: labor laws are fundamental, but they don't trump a) on one hand, a bad economical situation; and b) on the other hand, a die-hard culture of constantly finding ways around the law.
  - friendzis 10y ago
    This, especially the second point. It does not really matter how protective labour laws are when specialist market is small enough for the option of not signing mutual contract termination agreement and waiting to be laid off by employer would be too risky and detrimental to further career path. Word of mouth is very powerful ally for higher pay grade specialists.
  - pif 10y ago
    You can substitute "Portugal" with "Italy" without affecting the validity of the sentence.
  - wyager 10y ago
    Labor scarcity is usually more important than labor laws for quality of employment.
- jomamaxx 10y ago
  "I am so glad for the German labor laws." Labour laws are not so much the issue. This is a cultural phenom.
  - jagermo 10y ago
    I think one influences the other. And you need a certain age to appreciate them (for example the child holiday thing).
comboy 10y ago
It's South Korea. I don't know why are you assuming they don't get a good wage or have interesting personal lives. Some may work longer hours, but it's really not unheard of in our culture. It's just a way to get something of your head and accept the inevitable. The culture is different, so I doubt it could ever work here, but given how many upvotes any story related to depression or suicide gets on HN, SV could probably use something too.
- Nokinside 10y ago
  Korean and Japanese group actives and social organization always weirds me out. I just can't relate and it feels totally alien. I understand that most of it comes from totally different perspective. Somebody tried to explain to me that East Asians "roleplay" their parts social hierarchies. It's the job of the boss to patronize and it's the job of the workers to play their role. Officially everything is strict and proper, but in reality there are many accepted ways to break the rules without causing undue fuss. There are lazy workers in Japan and Korea like everywhere else. It's the job of the boss to yell at them like he is really angry, but workers know that their job security and place in the organization is secure if they do the minimum (compared to the same situation in US).
  - CaptSpify 10y ago
    That actually sounds a lot like many US offices. Many bosses don't care that their employee browses FaceBook all day at work, they just pretend to care, as long as the work gets done.
- cjslep 10y ago
  I am ending a 2-week work week/vacation week in Seoul. My first time here. The culture is definitely different. The glimpse I have gotten into work life is that it is industrious and punctual (for a white collar job), and long hours for a more manual job. But at night people seem to get along pretty well with coworkers or friends and go out. Even on a Monday night I stumbled into a Korean BBQ joint with mostly-drunken coworkers jovially making fun of their boss (who was present) and having a good time otherwise. To me, Seoul seems to have a ton of character. I've liked it so far, would like to visit again!
eva1984 10y ago
I think you misread this from beginning. As someone from eastern asian background, this feels not like some shady play that employer forces people into, rather I think it is close to a what is a catharsis or some sort of confession in western countries. The belief system of Sinosphere is built on ancestor worship. Every year, family gather together and goes to ancestor's tomb, do some cleaning and present offering to the other world, memorizing the ceased while appreciating contemporary life. I think this ritual works pretty much the same way, though it might feel weird, but outcome isn't that bad.
- Cthulhu_ 10y ago
  Might be, but it's a personal experience in that case, not one that should be forced upon employees by their employers. Keep work and spiritual life separated, if at all possible.
  - eva1984 10y ago
    Agreed, should offer like program for employees to participate. But I want to say this is different than those forced laughters or exercises the article tries to put them together, the latter, especially the laughing part feels pretty creepy to me, much more than this one.
- clentaminator 10y ago
  I'd almost believe you if it wasn't for the part of the article that read "The participants at this session were sent by their employer, human resources firm Staffs.". I don't see staff members volunteering for this, let alone people signing up for this of their own free will. I wouldn't necessarily trust the positive feedback from participants either. After all, who would willingly give truthful feedback to an employer that actually believes that this would have the kind of positive effect they seem to believe that it would?
  - eva1984 10y ago
    There is a documentary from Vice that talks about the kind of fake funeral in more details. http://www.vice.com/video/a-good-day-to-die-fake-funerals-in-south-korea http://www.vice.com/video/a-good-day-to-die-fake-funerals-in... It is used and viewed as a therapy for a lot of people. I do agree that people should be given the choice to turn down it.
794CD01 10y ago
In what way are your suggestions better? Do you mean that they are actually more effective, or are you just talking about your personal preference? Personally, I would have thought of better mental health care and limiting access to firearms and dangerous medications, so your proposal seemed very out of left field.
jomamaxx 10y ago
"- pay workers a livable wage - create an environment where the workday is completely and separated from the personal day - and one where it is possible for the worker to fully live their lives apart from their workplaces Then none of these charades will ever be necessary again." No, I don't think that's really it. The suicide issues in East Asia are highly contextualized to those cultures. They don't live the same way we do. They live in highly structured and organized societies with very strong social norms and obligations. Add in some hyper materialism in S. Korea since the war. The benefit of this social order is very low crime, fairly efficient society. But the drawback is that a small percent can't take it type thing. You know how many gun deaths there were in Japan last year? Like one! Of course it has something to do with extremely strict gun control, but it has mostly to do with their culture. It's not so much a 'workplace' issue so much as it is a cultural issue.
hammock 10y ago
Imagining how much worse things could be is an effective stoic technique often called negative visualization. Many HN readers probably practice it. Whether or not it's a good idea to use it to extrinsically motivate employees is another question..
- te0006 10y ago
  It's a standard technique of sociopaths in management roles. See "Implement an 'It could be worse' Program" in the relevant classic (and hilarious) textbook: http://www.demotivation.com/excerpts/7-2.html http://www.demotivation.com/excerpts/7-2.html
chrischen 10y ago
> - pay workers a livable wage Common misconception is that companies choose what wage to pay. Unless you're a massively growing startup infused with millions or billions of VC cash, you're pretty much locked into market forces just as the consumer is locked into market prices. > - create an environment where the workday is completely and separated from the personal day > - and one where it is possible for the worker to fully live their lives apart from their workplaces They already do this.

jagermo 10y ago

whenever I read an article like this, I am so glad for the German labor laws. They might make it harder for employers, but they make it possible to work AND have a decent live.

mjevans 10y ago
For someone not from Europe; what sort of worker protections would you like to highlight (also what is the healthcare like there)?
- jagermo 10y ago
  Regarding Healthcare, this wikipedia entry sums it up pretty good: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Germany Regarding the worker rights: Not only do you get a decent amount of holidays (around 30 in most companies, with additional free days for parents), but you can also take up to 14 months leave after childbirth (both father and mother, but combined not 14 months each and one person has to take at least 2 months to get the full amount). Your company has to offer you the job if you come back. You can't get fired on a whim if you didn't do anything wrong. Most jobs will have to give you a 3 to 6 months notice (depending on how long you were working there). Companies have to pay at least 8,50 Euro per hour. The law says that you are not allowed to work more than eight hours a day, however exceptions are possible to some extend.
  - Loic 10y ago
    The 8h/day rule is an average per week if you are working 6 days a week, this is because the maximum work per week is 48h. Usually you work 5 days, so you fall in the rule that you must not be above 48h/week and a maximum of 10h/day. If you work in shifts, some other rules apply but at the end, you cannot go over the 48h/week on average and have special "recovery" days. But in Germany you have a lot of agreements for let say metal workers or people in the chemical industry. In some cases, the official week is only 37h or even 35h long.
    - pluma 10y ago
      It's actually even more involved than that. For example there needs to be a 24 hour down period per week and there are mandatory breaks an employee is required to take by law (refusing to take a break, even voluntarily, puts the employer in violation with the law). I'd say that other than civil servants, people working in the "Handwerk" (a German concept that includes various industrial jobs and skilled crafts, literally "manual labour" but often implying specialised expertise) have it best as they typically work under union contracts and have fairly tight regulations. OTOH loan workers tend to have it worst: loan workers bypass a lot of the labour laws and often get all of the drawbacks of being self-employed without the benefits of actual free agency. They're often hired to replace permanent employees, so they're sometimes met with hostility from their colleagues and they have no job security and often no way to transfer to a permanent position (both because that's often exactly what they're there to replace and because they're often under non-compete contracts that forbid them from doing that). Agency work also tends to be pretty bad, especially for designers: you're often expected to work unpaid overtime and there is a lot of pressure keeping people from exercising their rights or asking for a raise. I've routinely seen designers work weekends and massive overtime (think 12 hours, not 10) for months on end. The worst story I heard was of a 32 hour day (working on a regular day until the next morning and then leaving "on time" the next day). Note that not every agency is like this, but they exist and it's taken for granted that you have to "eat dirt" if you really want to work in the industry. This especially used to be a problem with internships but thanks to some changes to a few laws interns have it pretty good these days (e.g. "voluntary" interns have to be paid minimum wage, making them a lot less cost efficient than they used to be). Also, of course, almost none of the labour protection laws apply to leadership roles (typically C-level jobs). The reasoning behind this probably being that if you run a company having to take time off can get in the way. Sadly this also means there are some strange corner cases for founders (e.g. you get almost none of the maternity protection).
paulojreis 10y ago
In Portugal, we have some "theoretically" restrictive labor laws, supposedly very protective towards the employee. Still, everyday you'll hear about someone being told that he/she should feel lucky to even have a job, let alone a salary (because, yes, unpaid stuff is also common). My point being: labor laws are fundamental, but they don't trump a) on one hand, a bad economical situation; and b) on the other hand, a die-hard culture of constantly finding ways around the law.
- friendzis 10y ago
  This, especially the second point. It does not really matter how protective labour laws are when specialist market is small enough for the option of not signing mutual contract termination agreement and waiting to be laid off by employer would be too risky and detrimental to further career path. Word of mouth is very powerful ally for higher pay grade specialists.
- pif 10y ago
  You can substitute "Portugal" with "Italy" without affecting the validity of the sentence.
- wyager 10y ago
  Labor scarcity is usually more important than labor laws for quality of employment.
jomamaxx 10y ago
"I am so glad for the German labor laws." Labour laws are not so much the issue. This is a cultural phenom.
- jagermo 10y ago
  I think one influences the other. And you need a certain age to appreciate them (for example the child holiday thing).

comboy 10y ago

It's South Korea. I don't know why are you assuming they don't get a good wage or have interesting personal lives. Some may work longer hours, but it's really not unheard of in our culture. It's just a way to get something of your head and accept the inevitable. The culture is different, so I doubt it could ever work here, but given how many upvotes any story related to depression or suicide gets on HN, SV could probably use something too.

Nokinside 10y ago
Korean and Japanese group actives and social organization always weirds me out. I just can't relate and it feels totally alien. I understand that most of it comes from totally different perspective. Somebody tried to explain to me that East Asians "roleplay" their parts social hierarchies. It's the job of the boss to patronize and it's the job of the workers to play their role. Officially everything is strict and proper, but in reality there are many accepted ways to break the rules without causing undue fuss. There are lazy workers in Japan and Korea like everywhere else. It's the job of the boss to yell at them like he is really angry, but workers know that their job security and place in the organization is secure if they do the minimum (compared to the same situation in US).
- CaptSpify 10y ago
  That actually sounds a lot like many US offices. Many bosses don't care that their employee browses FaceBook all day at work, they just pretend to care, as long as the work gets done.
cjslep 10y ago
I am ending a 2-week work week/vacation week in Seoul. My first time here. The culture is definitely different. The glimpse I have gotten into work life is that it is industrious and punctual (for a white collar job), and long hours for a more manual job. But at night people seem to get along pretty well with coworkers or friends and go out. Even on a Monday night I stumbled into a Korean BBQ joint with mostly-drunken coworkers jovially making fun of their boss (who was present) and having a good time otherwise. To me, Seoul seems to have a ton of character. I've liked it so far, would like to visit again!

eva1984 10y ago

I think you misread this from beginning. As someone from eastern asian background, this feels not like some shady play that employer forces people into, rather I think it is close to a what is a catharsis or some sort of confession in western countries. The belief system of Sinosphere is built on ancestor worship. Every year, family gather together and goes to ancestor's tomb, do some cleaning and present offering to the other world, memorizing the ceased while appreciating contemporary life. I think this ritual works pretty much the same way, though it might feel weird, but outcome isn't that bad.

Cthulhu_ 10y ago
Might be, but it's a personal experience in that case, not one that should be forced upon employees by their employers. Keep work and spiritual life separated, if at all possible.
- eva1984 10y ago
  Agreed, should offer like program for employees to participate. But I want to say this is different than those forced laughters or exercises the article tries to put them together, the latter, especially the laughing part feels pretty creepy to me, much more than this one.
clentaminator 10y ago
I'd almost believe you if it wasn't for the part of the article that read "The participants at this session were sent by their employer, human resources firm Staffs.". I don't see staff members volunteering for this, let alone people signing up for this of their own free will. I wouldn't necessarily trust the positive feedback from participants either. After all, who would willingly give truthful feedback to an employer that actually believes that this would have the kind of positive effect they seem to believe that it would?
- eva1984 10y ago
  There is a documentary from Vice that talks about the kind of fake funeral in more details. http://www.vice.com/video/a-good-day-to-die-fake-funerals-in-south-korea http://www.vice.com/video/a-good-day-to-die-fake-funerals-in... It is used and viewed as a therapy for a lot of people. I do agree that people should be given the choice to turn down it.

794CD01 10y ago

In what way are your suggestions better? Do you mean that they are actually more effective, or are you just talking about your personal preference? Personally, I would have thought of better mental health care and limiting access to firearms and dangerous medications, so your proposal seemed very out of left field.

jomamaxx 10y ago

"- pay workers a livable wage - create an environment where the workday is completely and separated from the personal day - and one where it is possible for the worker to fully live their lives apart from their workplaces Then none of these charades will ever be necessary again." No, I don't think that's really it. The suicide issues in East Asia are highly contextualized to those cultures. They don't live the same way we do. They live in highly structured and organized societies with very strong social norms and obligations. Add in some hyper materialism in S. Korea since the war. The benefit of this social order is very low crime, fairly efficient society. But the drawback is that a small percent can't take it type thing. You know how many gun deaths there were in Japan last year? Like one! Of course it has something to do with extremely strict gun control, but it has mostly to do with their culture. It's not so much a 'workplace' issue so much as it is a cultural issue.

hammock 10y ago

Imagining how much worse things could be is an effective stoic technique often called negative visualization. Many HN readers probably practice it. Whether or not it's a good idea to use it to extrinsically motivate employees is another question..

te0006 10y ago
It's a standard technique of sociopaths in management roles. See "Implement an 'It could be worse' Program" in the relevant classic (and hilarious) textbook: http://www.demotivation.com/excerpts/7-2.html http://www.demotivation.com/excerpts/7-2.html

chrischen 10y ago

> - pay workers a livable wage Common misconception is that companies choose what wage to pay. Unless you're a massively growing startup infused with millions or billions of VC cash, you're pretty much locked into market forces just as the consumer is locked into market prices. > - create an environment where the workday is completely and separated from the personal day > - and one where it is possible for the worker to fully live their lives apart from their workplaces They already do this.