4 ms·

Programmers are Indicted in Madoff Case

25 points by j_baker 17y ago

Tangurena 17y ago
Here is one article with some more details of the programs they wrote to specifically make Bernie's frauds possible: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/madoff-programmers/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/madoff-programmers/ > Jerome O'Hara and George Perez, former computer programmers for Madoff's Manhattan-based business, were arrested on charges they helped cover up the massive scam for more than 15 years and accepted payoffs to keep quiet after they threatened to stop hiding the conspiracy, prosecutors said. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/brokerage/2009-11-13-madoff-air-charter-jet_N.htm http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/brokerage/2009-11-1... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/business/14madoff.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/business/14madoff.html
bwhite 17y ago
Mark Cuban nailed this early on: http://blogmaverick.com/2009/01/18/breaking-down-bernie-madoff/ http://blogmaverick.com/2009/01/18/breaking-down-bernie-mado...
jrockway 17y ago
So people that design and sell handguns are not liable for murders with those handguns, but people that design and sell computer software are liable for crimes committed with that software? We need more lobbyists.
- tedunangst 17y ago
  "They are charged with conspiracy and falsifying records of a broker-dealer and of an investment adviser." If the people selling handguns assist in the murder, they too are liable.
  - jrockway 17y ago
    What's "assist"? Telling someone how to modify a semi-automatic gun to be fully-automatic? (Apparently not.) Every article about this situation is very low on details, so I am not sure that the programmers didn't do something obviously illegal. In that case, the fact that they were programmers is irrelevant, and shouldn't be mentioned. (The article should be "Some people that worked for Madoff helped him commit crimes" instead of "Programmers randomly indicted for t3h c0dez.")
    - anamax 17y ago
      > Telling someone how to modify a semi-automatic gun to be fully-automatic? Almost all such "instructions" don't actually work. (It's a near-perfect form of consumer fraud because you can't complain to the FTC or police when the instructions don't work.) Note that you can also tell people how to make poison, explosives, overthrow a govt, speed, rob a bank, and so on. (The conviction in the "hit man manual" case appears to have been an exception.)
    - prodigal_erik 17y ago
      If I'm reading this right, they're accused of writing programs whose goal was to give disinformation to auditors including the SEC. That would make their being programmers relevant.
    - anigbrowl 17y ago
      Let's dump the metaphor and look at what actually happened. They knew Madoff's operation was a scam. they went to him and threatened to blow the whistle on him to the SEC. They got pay raises to keep quiet...although by comparison tot he overall size of the fraud, the amount they settled for was a pathetic joke. This was discussed here some months ago when they were arrested - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=940214 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=940214
    - lrm242 17y ago
      Conspiracy is a very broad legal net. It doesn't take much to conspire to commit a crime, and in doing so you've just committed a felony. In this case, the programmers weren't simply writing code to specifications they were given--they were conspiring with Madoff to help him hide his fraud. This is illegal.
- strait 17y ago
  The general flavor of technology used here is the 'handgun'. The two programmers indicted would be the hit men. I'm pretty sure that Stroustrup will not be held responsible. :)
- robryan 17y ago
  The handgun can be used for perfectly legal purposes, if a program they have written only serves the purpose of doing something illegal I'd imagine it's a different story. If a handgun manufacturer made a custom weapon with the discussed intent of using it for a specific illegal purpose would they not be liable?
- InclinedPlane 17y ago
  If you have a machine shop in your garage and your neighbor asks you to build him a hand gun for the purpose of committing a murder, and you do so, yes, you will be an accomplice to his crime. If you sell cast iron frying pans, axes, baseball bats, or hand guns and those are used without your knowledge to commit crimes you are not an accomplice for those crimes
- JulianMorrison 17y ago
  The appropriate homemade metaphor isn't "handgun", it's "improvised explosive device".

25 points by j_baker 17y ago

Here is one article with some more details of the programs they wrote to specifically make Bernie's frauds possible: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/madoff-programmers/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2009/11/madoff-programmers/ > Jerome O'Hara and George Perez, former computer programmers for Madoff's Manhattan-based business, were arrested on charges they helped cover up the massive scam for more than 15 years and accepted payoffs to keep quiet after they threatened to stop hiding the conspiracy, prosecutors said. http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/brokerage/2009-11-13-madoff-air-charter-jet_N.htm http://www.usatoday.com/money/industries/brokerage/2009-11-1... http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/business/14madoff.html http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/14/business/14madoff.html

bwhite 17y ago

Mark Cuban nailed this early on: http://blogmaverick.com/2009/01/18/breaking-down-bernie-madoff/ http://blogmaverick.com/2009/01/18/breaking-down-bernie-mado...

jrockway 17y ago

So people that design and sell handguns are not liable for murders with those handguns, but people that design and sell computer software are liable for crimes committed with that software? We need more lobbyists.

tedunangst 17y ago
"They are charged with conspiracy and falsifying records of a broker-dealer and of an investment adviser." If the people selling handguns assist in the murder, they too are liable.
- jrockway 17y ago
  What's "assist"? Telling someone how to modify a semi-automatic gun to be fully-automatic? (Apparently not.) Every article about this situation is very low on details, so I am not sure that the programmers didn't do something obviously illegal. In that case, the fact that they were programmers is irrelevant, and shouldn't be mentioned. (The article should be "Some people that worked for Madoff helped him commit crimes" instead of "Programmers randomly indicted for t3h c0dez.")
  - anamax 17y ago
    > Telling someone how to modify a semi-automatic gun to be fully-automatic? Almost all such "instructions" don't actually work. (It's a near-perfect form of consumer fraud because you can't complain to the FTC or police when the instructions don't work.) Note that you can also tell people how to make poison, explosives, overthrow a govt, speed, rob a bank, and so on. (The conviction in the "hit man manual" case appears to have been an exception.)
  - prodigal_erik 17y ago
    If I'm reading this right, they're accused of writing programs whose goal was to give disinformation to auditors including the SEC. That would make their being programmers relevant.
  - anigbrowl 17y ago
    Let's dump the metaphor and look at what actually happened. They knew Madoff's operation was a scam. they went to him and threatened to blow the whistle on him to the SEC. They got pay raises to keep quiet...although by comparison tot he overall size of the fraud, the amount they settled for was a pathetic joke. This was discussed here some months ago when they were arrested - http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=940214 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=940214
  - lrm242 17y ago
    Conspiracy is a very broad legal net. It doesn't take much to conspire to commit a crime, and in doing so you've just committed a felony. In this case, the programmers weren't simply writing code to specifications they were given--they were conspiring with Madoff to help him hide his fraud. This is illegal.
strait 17y ago
The general flavor of technology used here is the 'handgun'. The two programmers indicted would be the hit men. I'm pretty sure that Stroustrup will not be held responsible. :)
robryan 17y ago
The handgun can be used for perfectly legal purposes, if a program they have written only serves the purpose of doing something illegal I'd imagine it's a different story. If a handgun manufacturer made a custom weapon with the discussed intent of using it for a specific illegal purpose would they not be liable?
InclinedPlane 17y ago
If you have a machine shop in your garage and your neighbor asks you to build him a hand gun for the purpose of committing a murder, and you do so, yes, you will be an accomplice to his crime. If you sell cast iron frying pans, axes, baseball bats, or hand guns and those are used without your knowledge to commit crimes you are not an accomplice for those crimes
JulianMorrison 17y ago
The appropriate homemade metaphor isn't "handgun", it's "improvised explosive device".