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The amount of fraud and thieves inside the community would make your eyes spin. I've had to straight block trading with a large chunk of the world. A big part

The amount of fraud and thieves inside the community would make your eyes spin. I've had to straight block trading with a large chunk of the world. A big part of this stems from the concept that in-game items are not _really_ money. It allows these online casinos to flourish because it's 'just in-game skins'! It's actually really similar to japans Pachinko system where you don't win money.. but you win something that can be traded for money right around the corner. In reality land, I can cash out of valves ecosystem for around 20% of in-game currency and some of those skins are worth thousands of dollars... These gambling sites really piss me off because they hurt the community. You have to remember, we're talking about young teenagers getting robbed from these guys, and it's not just their lunch money. We are easily talking hundreds of thousands to millions in revenue each year.

bluejellybean 10y ago
With all of that said, I include valve very much in with the rest of these gambling sites. If you're unaware, they run what are essentially slot machines inside there games. A super simple breakdown is as follows: 1.) play game for long enough, get item drops ( used to be 4 total per week in csgo ) ( either random gun worth $0.20 ~ $10.00 or case ) Cases are locked ( must be unlocked to get goodie ). The keys to open are sold by valve for $2.50 a pop or by people like myself for $2.00 ( I want to cash out to USD so I buy directly from valve ). 2.) When you unlock a case you play a literal slot machine, there are crap items worth pennies all the way up to $xx,000 knives that you can win. A big difference in valves case is that the reward rates are known to a pretty accurate number and you don't have to gamble to win in the system. As long as you play you get item drops that you can sell for real money ( rather than gambling them ). Wth the gambling sites, it's much more like betting on football but the house is probably screwing a bunch of people.
- kmnc 10y ago
  Honestly, I am surprised real online casinos don't try and play the same game. The could not allow you to cash out winnings, but allow you to purchase things with your winnings through their own site including "virtual tokens" which you could trade with "unaffiliated" third party sites for real money. Change the slot machines to never payout 0.00$ and boom you have a fully "legal" slot machine business. Gambling is a vice like any other and adults should have the freedom to engage in it but I find it disgusting that Valve has supported a practice that so obviously promotes addictive behaviour..in games marketed towards those who are most vulnerable to it (young adults). These lottery sites are just a product of the opportunity Valve created and its not surprising they are being used in fraudulent and immoral ways. It is sad, but not surprising that eSports is again being destroyed by ignorant game companies and shady opportunists.
  - vollmond 10y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko#Prizes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko#Prizes edit: I see this is already mentioned in the thread. Oh well :-)
  - ams6110 10y ago
    I don't know for sure, but I would guess that based on the way IRS defines "income" (it doesn't have to be cash... it's anything of value) that gambling to win anything of real value would be illegal if not properly licensed.
    - bluejellybean 10y ago
      Gets tricky! In the case of valve/games in general, are we really going to say all in game currency is 'real' money? If I make gold playing wow ( and this gold has a real world value ) should I have to claim income on that? If I buy and sell items in-game is that taxable? I have to imagine that at some point down the line the answer to these answers will be a fat "YES!" assuming you believe VR will continue to take over.. People just spend too much time, engery, and cold hard cash inside these video games for a government body to say "No" to forever.. I've chosen to ( okay, my lawyers told me ) to just claim normal income on the transactions out of steam ( I sell the keys for USD ). And if you follow that logic, then gambling in the current context should be okay. May be other laws on the gambling side but it's out of the scope of my knowledge.
  - hurbledr 10y ago
    >These lottery sites are just a product of the opportunity Valve created and its not surprising they are being used in fraudulent and immoral ways. While I definitely agree that valve is in some way culpable, I do feel that even without the systems they've put in place, you would see this sort of abuse. Look at Diablo 2 and early WoW. It's pretty obvious that many of the gray markets in today's online games were created in direct response to the black/gray markets that sprung up around those games. When these markets emerged, game developers basically had the option to either try and shut these systems down (not an easy task, perhaps impossible) or to reinforce and rebuild them. Clearly, most companies chose the latter. Valve even went as far as hiring the economist Yanis Varoufakis (who went on to become finance minister of Greece for a hot second) to help them manage their online markets. They clearly saw a lot of money being made and said to themselves, "why shouldn't I get a piece of the action?" I can't say I blame them, game devs should be compensated and compensated well. That being said, csgo is not a free to play game. As a csgo player, I find the whole skin system incredibly frustrating. Not only does it add no real value to the game in terms of gameplay, it also encourages a lot of bad behavior, such as hacking, scamming, spamming, etc. It also seems pretty clear that the decisions valve makes directly influence how easy/profitable it is to engage in these behaviors. While I don't think they are solely culpable for bad behavior on their platform, I do feel that they could do more to discourage it, even if it isn't in their financial interest.
- blaisio 10y ago
  I don't really have a problem with this on its own. Many games have similar mechanisms that are usually seen as a way for gamers to give back to the developers for making a great game. The problem occurs when it's possible to trade these items with other users for real money.
balls187 10y ago
> It's actually really similar to japans Pachinko system where you don't win money.. but you win something that can be traded for money right around the corner. That's how most (all?) real life casinos work too. You get chips, which are exchanged for money.
- Liru 10y ago
  Yeah, but gambling is illegal in Japan. To compare, in most casinos, the casino itself sells you the chips and buys them back. No need to fuss about location since it's all done in one place. In the Pachinko system, you go into the "casino", spend money on a machine, win the "chips" yourself, then go to another "casino" nearby to sell the "chips" for actual cash.
- kgwgk 10y ago
  In this case you get balls which are exchanged for a "prize". And then you go elsewhere to get money for it.
- ams6110 10y ago
  Casino chips are just proxies for cash and they exchange 1:1. They are not an "underground" currency at all. Also you are (presumably) verified to be 18 (or 21?) years of age to gamble in a casino.
- acveilleux 10y ago
  Real casinos don't use legal fiction and owner stand-ins to separate the gambling part from the redeeming chip part into seemingly unrelated business.
- deelowe 10y ago
  And goods and services. There are plenty of places in vegas that will accept chips as a form of payment.
deelowe 10y ago
This is how arcades started in the us. You used to win items that could be exchanged for goods in the store. There were laws created that rendered this illegal. I'd be surprised if some of them don't apply here.

bluejellybean 10y ago

With all of that said, I include valve very much in with the rest of these gambling sites. If you're unaware, they run what are essentially slot machines inside there games. A super simple breakdown is as follows: 1.) play game for long enough, get item drops ( used to be 4 total per week in csgo ) ( either random gun worth $0.20 ~ $10.00 or case ) Cases are locked ( must be unlocked to get goodie ). The keys to open are sold by valve for $2.50 a pop or by people like myself for $2.00 ( I want to cash out to USD so I buy directly from valve ). 2.) When you unlock a case you play a literal slot machine, there are crap items worth pennies all the way up to $xx,000 knives that you can win. A big difference in valves case is that the reward rates are known to a pretty accurate number and you don't have to gamble to win in the system. As long as you play you get item drops that you can sell for real money ( rather than gambling them ). Wth the gambling sites, it's much more like betting on football but the house is probably screwing a bunch of people.

kmnc 10y ago
Honestly, I am surprised real online casinos don't try and play the same game. The could not allow you to cash out winnings, but allow you to purchase things with your winnings through their own site including "virtual tokens" which you could trade with "unaffiliated" third party sites for real money. Change the slot machines to never payout 0.00$ and boom you have a fully "legal" slot machine business. Gambling is a vice like any other and adults should have the freedom to engage in it but I find it disgusting that Valve has supported a practice that so obviously promotes addictive behaviour..in games marketed towards those who are most vulnerable to it (young adults). These lottery sites are just a product of the opportunity Valve created and its not surprising they are being used in fraudulent and immoral ways. It is sad, but not surprising that eSports is again being destroyed by ignorant game companies and shady opportunists.
- vollmond 10y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko#Prizes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pachinko#Prizes edit: I see this is already mentioned in the thread. Oh well :-)
- ams6110 10y ago
  I don't know for sure, but I would guess that based on the way IRS defines "income" (it doesn't have to be cash... it's anything of value) that gambling to win anything of real value would be illegal if not properly licensed.
  - bluejellybean 10y ago
    Gets tricky! In the case of valve/games in general, are we really going to say all in game currency is 'real' money? If I make gold playing wow ( and this gold has a real world value ) should I have to claim income on that? If I buy and sell items in-game is that taxable? I have to imagine that at some point down the line the answer to these answers will be a fat "YES!" assuming you believe VR will continue to take over.. People just spend too much time, engery, and cold hard cash inside these video games for a government body to say "No" to forever.. I've chosen to ( okay, my lawyers told me ) to just claim normal income on the transactions out of steam ( I sell the keys for USD ). And if you follow that logic, then gambling in the current context should be okay. May be other laws on the gambling side but it's out of the scope of my knowledge.
- hurbledr 10y ago
  >These lottery sites are just a product of the opportunity Valve created and its not surprising they are being used in fraudulent and immoral ways. While I definitely agree that valve is in some way culpable, I do feel that even without the systems they've put in place, you would see this sort of abuse. Look at Diablo 2 and early WoW. It's pretty obvious that many of the gray markets in today's online games were created in direct response to the black/gray markets that sprung up around those games. When these markets emerged, game developers basically had the option to either try and shut these systems down (not an easy task, perhaps impossible) or to reinforce and rebuild them. Clearly, most companies chose the latter. Valve even went as far as hiring the economist Yanis Varoufakis (who went on to become finance minister of Greece for a hot second) to help them manage their online markets. They clearly saw a lot of money being made and said to themselves, "why shouldn't I get a piece of the action?" I can't say I blame them, game devs should be compensated and compensated well. That being said, csgo is not a free to play game. As a csgo player, I find the whole skin system incredibly frustrating. Not only does it add no real value to the game in terms of gameplay, it also encourages a lot of bad behavior, such as hacking, scamming, spamming, etc. It also seems pretty clear that the decisions valve makes directly influence how easy/profitable it is to engage in these behaviors. While I don't think they are solely culpable for bad behavior on their platform, I do feel that they could do more to discourage it, even if it isn't in their financial interest.
blaisio 10y ago
I don't really have a problem with this on its own. Many games have similar mechanisms that are usually seen as a way for gamers to give back to the developers for making a great game. The problem occurs when it's possible to trade these items with other users for real money.

balls187 10y ago

> It's actually really similar to japans Pachinko system where you don't win money.. but you win something that can be traded for money right around the corner. That's how most (all?) real life casinos work too. You get chips, which are exchanged for money.

Liru 10y ago
Yeah, but gambling is illegal in Japan. To compare, in most casinos, the casino itself sells you the chips and buys them back. No need to fuss about location since it's all done in one place. In the Pachinko system, you go into the "casino", spend money on a machine, win the "chips" yourself, then go to another "casino" nearby to sell the "chips" for actual cash.
kgwgk 10y ago
In this case you get balls which are exchanged for a "prize". And then you go elsewhere to get money for it.
ams6110 10y ago
Casino chips are just proxies for cash and they exchange 1:1. They are not an "underground" currency at all. Also you are (presumably) verified to be 18 (or 21?) years of age to gamble in a casino.
acveilleux 10y ago
Real casinos don't use legal fiction and owner stand-ins to separate the gambling part from the redeeming chip part into seemingly unrelated business.
deelowe 10y ago
And goods and services. There are plenty of places in vegas that will accept chips as a form of payment.

deelowe 10y ago

This is how arcades started in the us. You used to win items that could be exchanged for goods in the store. There were laws created that rendered this illegal. I'd be surprised if some of them don't apply here.