5 ms·

Real shady stuff and definitely immoral. The most telling part of this whole debacle for me came from a (now deleted) tweet by TmarTn[1] where he states: > Tha

by eertami 10y ago

Real shady stuff and definitely immoral. The most telling part of this whole debacle for me came from a (now deleted) tweet by TmarTn[1] where he states: > That being said, everything we've done up until this point has been legal, that has been a #1 priority of ours. The day it becomes illegal is the day we cease activity. So just because something is apparently not illegal (questionable, actually), it is apparently an acceptable thing to do. Hopefully legal action is successful against these frauds. [1]: http://archive.is/wHdZG http://archive.is/wHdZG

ChuckMcM 10y ago
I call it the "perfectly legal" defense. There are lots of people who will engage in morally reprehensible behavior for their own gain which is otherwise legal. When I find folks who are of that persuasion I seek to find ways to no associate with them (sometimes easy, sometimes less so). Generally, if they do it "right", then cannot be sued. But you can shine light on their activity (like this article is) and shame them.
- eertami 10y ago
  I'm not American, nor a lawyer, but I have read that as they offered no disclaimers of ownership of the website they were promoting, that it might be possible to challenge them.
  - oldmanjay 10y ago
    Challenge them in what sense, and for what affront?
    - wlesieutre 10y ago
      Not my field of expertise, but I know the FCC enforces a lot of disclosure requirements in advertising, even on YouTube. If you're running a game review channel and somebody pays you for covering their game, you're legally required to disclose the sponsorship of the videos. Hopefully someone else can jump in with more specific rules, but I would imagine that if you're pretending to be a neutral third party mentioning a service when you actually own it, the FCC might have a problem with that.
      - DanBC 10y ago
        Here's the FTC faqs: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftcs-endorsement-guides-what-people-are-asking https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftc...
    - woodruffw 10y ago
      Failure to disclose business interests, most likely. The FTC takes a dim view of this sort of stuff.
    - ChuckMcM 10y ago
      I agree it would be the FTC. When we were running Blekko the FTC sent us (and every other search engine) a letter outlining what they considered the requirements for correctly identifying organic versus sponsored versus outright advertising results.
- sweezyjeezy 10y ago
  Yeah it's like that old xkcd mouseover text : "I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express." http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png
  - acheron 10y ago
    I think that's a good example though maybe in the opposite way you intended. Censorious asshats like to conflate the principle of free speech with legality in order to continue being censorious asshats, which that comic is basically endorsing by pretending that "free speech" is only a legal concept.
bluejellybean 10y ago
The amount of fraud and thieves inside the community would make your eyes spin. I've had to straight block trading with a large chunk of the world. A big part of this stems from the concept that in-game items are not _really_ money. It allows these online casinos to flourish because it's 'just in-game skins'! It's actually really similar to japans Pachinko system where you don't win money.. but you win something that can be traded for money right around the corner. In reality land, I can cash out of valves ecosystem for around 20% of in-game currency and some of those skins are worth thousands of dollars... These gambling sites really piss me off because they hurt the community. You have to remember, we're talking about young teenagers getting robbed from these guys, and it's not just their lunch money. We are easily talking hundreds of thousands to millions in revenue each year.
- bluejellybean 10y ago
  With all of that said, I include valve very much in with the rest of these gambling sites. If you're unaware, they run what are essentially slot machines inside there games. A super simple breakdown is as follows: 1.) play game for long enough, get item drops ( used to be 4 total per week in csgo ) ( either random gun worth $0.20 ~ $10.00 or case ) Cases are locked ( must be unlocked to get goodie ). The keys to open are sold by valve for $2.50 a pop or by people like myself for $2.00 ( I want to cash out to USD so I buy directly from valve ). 2.) When you unlock a case you play a literal slot machine, there are crap items worth pennies all the way up to $xx,000 knives that you can win. A big difference in valves case is that the reward rates are known to a pretty accurate number and you don't have to gamble to win in the system. As long as you play you get item drops that you can sell for real money ( rather than gambling them ). Wth the gambling sites, it's much more like betting on football but the house is probably screwing a bunch of people.
  - kmnc 10y ago
    Honestly, I am surprised real online casinos don't try and play the same game. The could not allow you to cash out winnings, but allow you to purchase things with your winnings through their own site including "virtual tokens" which you could trade with "unaffiliated" third party sites for real money. Change the slot machines to never payout 0.00$ and boom you have a fully "legal" slot machine business. Gambling is a vice like any other and adults should have the freedom to engage in it but I find it disgusting that Valve has supported a practice that so obviously promotes addictive behaviour..in games marketed towards those who are most vulnerable to it (young adults). These lottery sites are just a product of the opportunity Valve created and its not surprising they are being used in fraudulent and immoral ways. It is sad, but not surprising that eSports is again being destroyed by ignorant game companies and shady opportunists.
leppr 10y ago
Putting any effort in fighting "corruption" in online gambling/lottery/casino sites when it is known that the health, food, and politics industries are full of it seems like misdirected efforts to me.
spriggan3 10y ago
Immoral? Pretty much illegal in most western countries. It is called fraud. But Valve isn't innocent in that mess, Valve created that market, no different from the patchinko system in Japan(where gambling is pretty much illegal, but they invented "tricks" and schemes to circumvent local laws, and it works exactly like these websites).

by eertami 10y ago

ChuckMcM 10y ago

I call it the "perfectly legal" defense. There are lots of people who will engage in morally reprehensible behavior for their own gain which is otherwise legal. When I find folks who are of that persuasion I seek to find ways to no associate with them (sometimes easy, sometimes less so). Generally, if they do it "right", then cannot be sued. But you can shine light on their activity (like this article is) and shame them.

eertami 10y ago
I'm not American, nor a lawyer, but I have read that as they offered no disclaimers of ownership of the website they were promoting, that it might be possible to challenge them.
- oldmanjay 10y ago
  Challenge them in what sense, and for what affront?
  - wlesieutre 10y ago
    Not my field of expertise, but I know the FCC enforces a lot of disclosure requirements in advertising, even on YouTube. If you're running a game review channel and somebody pays you for covering their game, you're legally required to disclose the sponsorship of the videos. Hopefully someone else can jump in with more specific rules, but I would imagine that if you're pretending to be a neutral third party mentioning a service when you actually own it, the FCC might have a problem with that.
    - DanBC 10y ago
      Here's the FTC faqs: https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftcs-endorsement-guides-what-people-are-asking https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/business-center/guidance/ftc...
  - woodruffw 10y ago
    Failure to disclose business interests, most likely. The FTC takes a dim view of this sort of stuff.
  - ChuckMcM 10y ago
    I agree it would be the FTC. When we were running Blekko the FTC sent us (and every other search engine) a letter outlining what they considered the requirements for correctly identifying organic versus sponsored versus outright advertising results.
sweezyjeezy 10y ago
Yeah it's like that old xkcd mouseover text : "I can't remember where I heard this, but someone once said that defending a position by citing free speech is sort of the ultimate concession; you're saying that the most compelling thing you can say for your position is that it's not literally illegal to express." http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/free_speech.png
- acheron 10y ago
  I think that's a good example though maybe in the opposite way you intended. Censorious asshats like to conflate the principle of free speech with legality in order to continue being censorious asshats, which that comic is basically endorsing by pretending that "free speech" is only a legal concept.

bluejellybean 10y ago

The amount of fraud and thieves inside the community would make your eyes spin. I've had to straight block trading with a large chunk of the world. A big part of this stems from the concept that in-game items are not _really_ money. It allows these online casinos to flourish because it's 'just in-game skins'! It's actually really similar to japans Pachinko system where you don't win money.. but you win something that can be traded for money right around the corner. In reality land, I can cash out of valves ecosystem for around 20% of in-game currency and some of those skins are worth thousands of dollars... These gambling sites really piss me off because they hurt the community. You have to remember, we're talking about young teenagers getting robbed from these guys, and it's not just their lunch money. We are easily talking hundreds of thousands to millions in revenue each year.

bluejellybean 10y ago
With all of that said, I include valve very much in with the rest of these gambling sites. If you're unaware, they run what are essentially slot machines inside there games. A super simple breakdown is as follows: 1.) play game for long enough, get item drops ( used to be 4 total per week in csgo ) ( either random gun worth $0.20 ~ $10.00 or case ) Cases are locked ( must be unlocked to get goodie ). The keys to open are sold by valve for $2.50 a pop or by people like myself for $2.00 ( I want to cash out to USD so I buy directly from valve ). 2.) When you unlock a case you play a literal slot machine, there are crap items worth pennies all the way up to $xx,000 knives that you can win. A big difference in valves case is that the reward rates are known to a pretty accurate number and you don't have to gamble to win in the system. As long as you play you get item drops that you can sell for real money ( rather than gambling them ). Wth the gambling sites, it's much more like betting on football but the house is probably screwing a bunch of people.
- kmnc 10y ago
  Honestly, I am surprised real online casinos don't try and play the same game. The could not allow you to cash out winnings, but allow you to purchase things with your winnings through their own site including "virtual tokens" which you could trade with "unaffiliated" third party sites for real money. Change the slot machines to never payout 0.00$ and boom you have a fully "legal" slot machine business. Gambling is a vice like any other and adults should have the freedom to engage in it but I find it disgusting that Valve has supported a practice that so obviously promotes addictive behaviour..in games marketed towards those who are most vulnerable to it (young adults). These lottery sites are just a product of the opportunity Valve created and its not surprising they are being used in fraudulent and immoral ways. It is sad, but not surprising that eSports is again being destroyed by ignorant game companies and shady opportunists.

leppr 10y ago

Putting any effort in fighting "corruption" in online gambling/lottery/casino sites when it is known that the health, food, and politics industries are full of it seems like misdirected efforts to me.

spriggan3 10y ago

Immoral? Pretty much illegal in most western countries. It is called fraud. But Valve isn't innocent in that mess, Valve created that market, no different from the patchinko system in Japan(where gambling is pretty much illegal, but they invented "tricks" and schemes to circumvent local laws, and it works exactly like these websites).