5 ms·

> There isn't really an official version of French either Yes, yes there is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_fran%C3%A7aise https://en.wikipedia.o

by tribaal 10y ago

> There isn't really an official version of French either Yes, yes there is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_fran%C3%A7aise https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acad%C3%A9mie_fran%C3%A7aise The very video you link to calls Quebec French "Joual"... not French. It criticizes those who say they don't speak properly. They speak Joual proprely :) Joual is a dialect of French, sure, but not proper French. PS: I've never before heared the term "Joual" before (I'm a native French speaker). Thanks for the TIL!

jordigh 10y ago
I hate to break it to you, and this really is as difficult for the French to understand as it is for the Russians to understand that they should not be occupying other countries or for the Japanese to know that they committed atrocious war crimes against Koreans or for Mexicans to know that they treat Guatemalan immigrants as bad or worse as the US treats Mexican immigrants. That is, something that cuts deep against your national identity and the thing that you hear in school, in government, all around you. Something against what you've been immersed in your whole French life: France does not have the exclusive right to define what "French" is. Québec and other parts of the Francophonie have many differing versions of French, and not all Quebeckers speak Joual exclusively (nor do all New Brunswickers[1] speak Chiac exclusively). The French spoken in Québec has the same rich history and origins as the French spoken in Québec. You can read more about the history of Québec French here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyf8tz_IoyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyf8tz_IoyQ ---- [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PbyiTKpDj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PbyiTKpDj0
- tribaal 10y ago
  I'm a French speaker, not a French citizen. Quebec is not the only non-France part of the world where French is spoken, and as a citizen of one of these parts, I still believe (like most French speakers) that French is, indeed, formally defined. You are free to speak whatever dialect of French you like (or come up with your own), nobody is arguing against that. I'll speak my own just as well. That doesn't make it proper French. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language#Dialects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language#Dialects EDIT: Failed at linking to the appropriate section, which would have been ok if it didn't make my reply excessively pedantic. If you read it before my edit, sorry.
  - mcguire 10y ago
    But, but, if you accept that French has a formal definition and you do not follow that definition, then you do not, by definition, ipso facto, quod erat demonstrandom, speak French.
    - tribaal 10y ago
      I follow that definition when I want to speak proper French. The rest of the time I'm quite happy to speak my dialect instead. Ergo: I don't consider dialects (mine or others) to be French. They are dialects of French. Not French.
gerbilly 10y ago
>The very video you link to calls Quebec French "Joual". Not all Québec french is "Joual" FYI. Also there is nothing credible that makes Parisian French[1] the official correct one. The academy can prescribe all it wants, it doesn't mean it has to be followed. Language belongs to and is made by the people, not by Coanan the grammarian at the Académie.[2] If linguists want to study it and create dictionaries, and descriptive grammars, great. But I don't care to listen to them once they start to prescribe: don't tell us how to speak. [1] Which one anyway, St. Denis accent is 'Parisian'. [2] There are studies demonstrating that in mixed language environments, it is the second generation children who 'creolize' the mostly unstructured pidgin spoken by their elders. This creole has fixed grammatical rules and is the beginnings of a new language.
- Apocryphon 10y ago
  The most interesting thing is that, if we were to add the complexity of history and politics (or at least, historical politics), Quebec French is supposedly descended from the pre-Revolutionary royal court itself. [1] How's that for a prestige dialect? [1] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/deplorable-quebecois-accent-has-royal-roots-linguist-asserts/article660839/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/deplorable-queb...

by tribaal 10y ago

jordigh 10y ago

I hate to break it to you, and this really is as difficult for the French to understand as it is for the Russians to understand that they should not be occupying other countries or for the Japanese to know that they committed atrocious war crimes against Koreans or for Mexicans to know that they treat Guatemalan immigrants as bad or worse as the US treats Mexican immigrants. That is, something that cuts deep against your national identity and the thing that you hear in school, in government, all around you. Something against what you've been immersed in your whole French life: France does not have the exclusive right to define what "French" is. Québec and other parts of the Francophonie have many differing versions of French, and not all Quebeckers speak Joual exclusively (nor do all New Brunswickers[1] speak Chiac exclusively). The French spoken in Québec has the same rich history and origins as the French spoken in Québec. You can read more about the history of Québec French here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyf8tz_IoyQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oyf8tz_IoyQ ---- [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PbyiTKpDj0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PbyiTKpDj0

tribaal 10y ago
I'm a French speaker, not a French citizen. Quebec is not the only non-France part of the world where French is spoken, and as a citizen of one of these parts, I still believe (like most French speakers) that French is, indeed, formally defined. You are free to speak whatever dialect of French you like (or come up with your own), nobody is arguing against that. I'll speak my own just as well. That doesn't make it proper French. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language#Dialects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_language#Dialects EDIT: Failed at linking to the appropriate section, which would have been ok if it didn't make my reply excessively pedantic. If you read it before my edit, sorry.
- mcguire 10y ago
  But, but, if you accept that French has a formal definition and you do not follow that definition, then you do not, by definition, ipso facto, quod erat demonstrandom, speak French.
  - tribaal 10y ago
    I follow that definition when I want to speak proper French. The rest of the time I'm quite happy to speak my dialect instead. Ergo: I don't consider dialects (mine or others) to be French. They are dialects of French. Not French.

gerbilly 10y ago

>The very video you link to calls Quebec French "Joual". Not all Québec french is "Joual" FYI. Also there is nothing credible that makes Parisian French[1] the official correct one. The academy can prescribe all it wants, it doesn't mean it has to be followed. Language belongs to and is made by the people, not by Coanan the grammarian at the Académie.[2] If linguists want to study it and create dictionaries, and descriptive grammars, great. But I don't care to listen to them once they start to prescribe: don't tell us how to speak. [1] Which one anyway, St. Denis accent is 'Parisian'. [2] There are studies demonstrating that in mixed language environments, it is the second generation children who 'creolize' the mostly unstructured pidgin spoken by their elders. This creole has fixed grammatical rules and is the beginnings of a new language.

Apocryphon 10y ago
The most interesting thing is that, if we were to add the complexity of history and politics (or at least, historical politics), Quebec French is supposedly descended from the pre-Revolutionary royal court itself. [1] How's that for a prestige dialect? [1] http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/deplorable-quebecois-accent-has-royal-roots-linguist-asserts/article660839/ http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/deplorable-queb...