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> Please drop the conspiracionist tone if you want a serious conversation, or at the very least drop this silly attempt at sweeping very important arguments und

by meira 10y ago

> Please drop the conspiracionist tone if you want a serious conversation, or at the very least drop this silly attempt at sweeping very important arguments under the rug just to make your point. These "simple" things like Freedom of Speech, respect for the Rule of Law and Individual Rights are not is not "Western media thinking". It is the core basis of Western values themselves. Freedom of Speech, respect for the Rule of Law and Individual Rights to who? Do people from Africa, South Asia and Latin America fit on it? > Why is that WeChat is better than FB to "most if not all" Chinese by virtue of being closed? Because they generate chinese high tech jobs and an extraordinary supply chain. If both of them hurts "freedom", the one that brings more prosperity is better.

rglullis 10y ago
You still haven't showed any convincing argument why Facebook "hurts freedom", at least systemically. The bubbles of these gigantic social networks and the closed walled-gardens are bad for sure, but Zuckerberg isn't the one that gets to decide what can or not be said, and surely he is not the one persecuting anyone with dissenting views, and much less he has a monopoly on how information can be shared, which would allow him to control people that could spread any kind of information that doesn't align with "Uncle Sam's interests". > "If both of them hurts "freedom", the one that brings more prosperity is better." That is a false equivalence (the kind of damage to Freedom is not the same), and still does not show how WeChat benefits "most if not all" Chinese. Even if you reduce to the pure economic argument, you would still have to show that the people not working for WeChat wouldn't be working for Facebook or any other competitor in case China had an open economy.
- meira 10y ago
  > That is a false equivalence (the kind of damage to Freedom is not the same), and still does not show how WeChat benefits "most if not all" Chinese. Even if you reduce to the pure economic argument, you would still have to show that the people not working for WeChat wouldn't be working for Facebook or any other competitor in case China had an open economy. I don't have to show anything, dude, are you insane? Do you have any point proving that WeChat, a national player, is not better for China than Facebook? If so, tell me why because this is the beginning of the discussion.
  - rglullis 10y ago
    You are the one claiming that WeChat is better. You are the one that claimed that Facebook "made you poorer". So, yes, you are the one that made extraordinary claims, you are the one that needs to bring extraordinary proof. Stop with the smokescreen and mirrors, and start actually defending your principles.
    - meira 10y ago
      Man, you're nuts.
      - rglullis 10y ago
        Really? All I am asking is for you to show any kind of credible data to support your ridiculous claims, and this is all you can come up with? You really are a waste of my time. Maybe I am crazy for expecting any kind of decent discussion about anything political with Brazilians on the Internet.
        meira 10y ago
        With this attitude, I think you are crazy in any discussion. What you are asking is proof that Shenzhen and Beijing are better for China than Silicon Valley, and this is stupidity. You're not insane, you're dumb as hell, just like all of brazilians liberaloides and bolsomitos. And it makes me sad to see you guys even here in HN. The Brazilians Bro's!
        rglullis 10y ago
        First, let's stop with the name-calling. We can do better than that. I am not discussing with you to score internet points. I am actually trying to engage in a conversation to see if your arguments have any merit. Second, > What you are asking is proof that Shenzhen and Beijing are better for China than Silicon Valley... You are moving the goal posts. I am not asking for any kind of "proof" related to Chinese cities vs Silicon Valley. I will be very explicit: - You made a claim that WeChat (the company/product/service) is better for a Chinese than Facebook is for "anyone else in the global market", e.g, countries were Facebook can operate. - I am asking for a argument for your claim. - So far, you have done all but providing any reasonable idea that could support your claim. - In another part of the thread you started with the premises of protectionism and lacked any kind of conclusion, and others already tried to show how that is flawed. So, let me try once again. Please, explain why is it better, and how does WeChat benefit "most if not all" Chinese people? How does an ordinary Chinese citizen benefits more from a Chinese-only, Government-controlled social network, and what is there that Facebook couldn't offer as well in a scenario where the market could be open? Third, I understand that you think that a closed, protectionist policy is better for the people than an open, global economy. But it seems to me that you are arguing in circles - "WeChat has more users in China, WeChat is controlled by the Government and closed, Government control makes it easier for "national companies", therefore "national companies" are better for the users". I am trying to clarify is how you would argue that WeChat, by virtue of being closed and protected by the Chinese Government, can be better than the other services. Fourth, you've said things here that are provably wrong - e.g, the thing about taxes being reduced during FHC. When you are getting such basic information wrong, couldn't you at the very least check your sources and re-evaluate some of your preconceptions? Could you be so kind and show just a little bit of humility and take a look at if you are engaging in an intellectually honest conversation?

by meira 10y ago

rglullis 10y ago

You still haven't showed any convincing argument why Facebook "hurts freedom", at least systemically. The bubbles of these gigantic social networks and the closed walled-gardens are bad for sure, but Zuckerberg isn't the one that gets to decide what can or not be said, and surely he is not the one persecuting anyone with dissenting views, and much less he has a monopoly on how information can be shared, which would allow him to control people that could spread any kind of information that doesn't align with "Uncle Sam's interests". > "If both of them hurts "freedom", the one that brings more prosperity is better." That is a false equivalence (the kind of damage to Freedom is not the same), and still does not show how WeChat benefits "most if not all" Chinese. Even if you reduce to the pure economic argument, you would still have to show that the people not working for WeChat wouldn't be working for Facebook or any other competitor in case China had an open economy.

meira 10y ago
> That is a false equivalence (the kind of damage to Freedom is not the same), and still does not show how WeChat benefits "most if not all" Chinese. Even if you reduce to the pure economic argument, you would still have to show that the people not working for WeChat wouldn't be working for Facebook or any other competitor in case China had an open economy. I don't have to show anything, dude, are you insane? Do you have any point proving that WeChat, a national player, is not better for China than Facebook? If so, tell me why because this is the beginning of the discussion.
- rglullis 10y ago
  You are the one claiming that WeChat is better. You are the one that claimed that Facebook "made you poorer". So, yes, you are the one that made extraordinary claims, you are the one that needs to bring extraordinary proof. Stop with the smokescreen and mirrors, and start actually defending your principles.
  - meira 10y ago
    Man, you're nuts.
    - rglullis 10y ago
      Really? All I am asking is for you to show any kind of credible data to support your ridiculous claims, and this is all you can come up with? You really are a waste of my time. Maybe I am crazy for expecting any kind of decent discussion about anything political with Brazilians on the Internet.
      - meira 10y ago
        With this attitude, I think you are crazy in any discussion. What you are asking is proof that Shenzhen and Beijing are better for China than Silicon Valley, and this is stupidity. You're not insane, you're dumb as hell, just like all of brazilians liberaloides and bolsomitos. And it makes me sad to see you guys even here in HN. The Brazilians Bro's!
        rglullis 10y ago
        First, let's stop with the name-calling. We can do better than that. I am not discussing with you to score internet points. I am actually trying to engage in a conversation to see if your arguments have any merit. Second, > What you are asking is proof that Shenzhen and Beijing are better for China than Silicon Valley... You are moving the goal posts. I am not asking for any kind of "proof" related to Chinese cities vs Silicon Valley. I will be very explicit: - You made a claim that WeChat (the company/product/service) is better for a Chinese than Facebook is for "anyone else in the global market", e.g, countries were Facebook can operate. - I am asking for a argument for your claim. - So far, you have done all but providing any reasonable idea that could support your claim. - In another part of the thread you started with the premises of protectionism and lacked any kind of conclusion, and others already tried to show how that is flawed. So, let me try once again. Please, explain why is it better, and how does WeChat benefit "most if not all" Chinese people? How does an ordinary Chinese citizen benefits more from a Chinese-only, Government-controlled social network, and what is there that Facebook couldn't offer as well in a scenario where the market could be open? Third, I understand that you think that a closed, protectionist policy is better for the people than an open, global economy. But it seems to me that you are arguing in circles - "WeChat has more users in China, WeChat is controlled by the Government and closed, Government control makes it easier for "national companies", therefore "national companies" are better for the users". I am trying to clarify is how you would argue that WeChat, by virtue of being closed and protected by the Chinese Government, can be better than the other services. Fourth, you've said things here that are provably wrong - e.g, the thing about taxes being reduced during FHC. When you are getting such basic information wrong, couldn't you at the very least check your sources and re-evaluate some of your preconceptions? Could you be so kind and show just a little bit of humility and take a look at if you are engaging in an intellectually honest conversation?