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This is fascinating to me. In the UK the words we use to describe every day times is so diverse and unique to an area that to call one term "correct" and the ot
by PaulRobinson 10y ago
This is fascinating to me. In the UK the words we use to describe every day times is so diverse and unique to an area that to call one term "correct" and the other "incorrect" would lead to a huge argument. It's accepted that different areas with their differing backgrounds and cultures have different names.
For example, what would you call a small piece of break baked in a broadly spherical shape? The University of Manchester decided to find out: http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/lexical-variation/bread/ http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/lexical-v...
Your evening meal, what do you call that? That varies, too: http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/lexical-variation/evening-meal/ http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/lexical-v...
What about grammatical "errors", such as "The dress what I bought"? They looked at that too: http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/syntactic-variation/the-dress-what-i-bought/ http://projects.alc.manchester.ac.uk/ukdialectmaps/syntactic...
I encourage people to explore the menus on that site. It's fascinating, genuinely.
English is a dynamic language, particularly in its first birthplace, structured as it is after multiple invasions from Latin speakers, Germanic/Anglo-Saxon speakers, Vikings, the French, and more recently African, Caribbean, Sri Lankan and Indian/Asian migration from the former empire and commonwealth.
It is why we can turn anything into an adverb and immediately make it rude/suspect ("I am so going to have a good penguining tonight"), or delightfully ambiguous on the one hand, but the intent obvious on the other ("This track is so brick, mate, you should listen to it").
English is not French. There is no official version of it. We talk about "proper" English as being "The [King/Queen]'s English", perhaps, but only to identify it as being distinct from the English used by many others. People aspire to use it as royalty does for obvious reasons, but it is churlish to dismiss variations.
The fact that this issue happened in Oakland, that it was an issue relating to African American children in particular, that it is divorced from the reality of English and its traditions, all of this makes me suspicious the underlying cause was a form of implicit/subconscious racism. It may even have been explicit.
That said, I've noticed America in particular has held onto a form of English and developed it in a way that is quite divorced from the UK. It's thought that the modern New York accent and vernacular is not wholly dissimilar to 18th-century English South West, for reasons perhaps obvious to those who understand a little of the history of New York and its earliest settlers. Likewise, Canadian accents have more than a hint of Scottish in many parts: 1950s Canadian films to me sound almost 100% Scottish.
What is the point I'm making? It's a language for all of us. Yes there is a standard English. But those who seek to deny its development within sub-cultures and regional variations are not just denying its tradition and history, but avoiding a possibly very beautiful future.
- sevenless 10y ago"A language is a dialect with a navy" - Max Weinreich
- _petronius 10y agoProperly: "A language is a dialect with an army and navy." But I like the original Yiddish, because it illustrates the point rather clearly (transcribed to the latin alphabet): "a shprakh iz a dialekt mit an armey un flot" There's a nice, relevant discussion of the origin of the quote on the Wikipedia page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_an_army_and_navy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_language_is_a_dialect_with_a...
- mikeash 10y agoThis seems to be unfairly biased against landlocked countries. Kazakh and Lao are languages too!
- pluma 10y agoI think that's intentional. As I understand it Jewish humour is typically self-deprecating, which explains the irony of saying that about language in Yiddish; a language which has neither a navy, an army nor a country (except for a short time during the Soviet era), and was generally dismissed as "just broken German" similarly to AAVE. Considering the history of the quote it's probably a direct dismissal of the "just broken German" assertion (because German had an army and a navy but Yiddish obviously did not).
- mikeash 10y agoMakes sense to me. It just struck me as funny, as I've always just heard it as "with an army," and the implications of adding "and a navy" were amusing.
- jordigh 10y ago> English is not French. There is no official version of it. There isn't really an official version of French either: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgiNoNqYXMA https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgiNoNqYXMA Or rather, both English and French have prestige dialects. If you want to adhere to high social standing, you try to emulate the speech of BBC or CNN reporters, or you try to follow the constraints of l'Academie. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_%28sociolinguistics%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prestige_%28sociolinguistics%2... I like that in Spanish the corresponding Royal Spanish Academy has gotten a bit laxer in recent years and rather than trying to tell people all around the Spanish world how to talk, they just document variations in their official dictionary. To do this, they are aided by other Spanish academies around the world, including the US Spanish Academy: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Spanish_Language_Academies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Spanish_Languag... They still publish articles on how to spell, but I find that more tolerable, as spelling is artificial but speech is natural.