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I think your comment assumes a cohesive government policy that simply doesn't exist. > They've ... still complained about the > "fascist EU" taking awa

I think your comment assumes a cohesive government policy that simply doesn't exist. > They've ... still complained about the > "fascist EU" taking away their > "sovereignty". There is no "they". There are leaders of political parties beholden to factions in their parties, only. For every nutcase UK politician and voter who calls the EU facist, there's a French one, a Dutch one, and a German one saying the same thing. Voter skepticism in the UK is probably higher than in the other major EU countries but only by a fraction. Don't assume the margin in the Netherlands or France would be massively that different, and those are countries which already have the Euro. > UKIP was the logical consequence UKIP is the logical consequence to the UK lacking a real far-right party. The right-wing parties on the continent are far scarier, and generally have higher support. > In the wake of the referendum the entire > UK government has committed to following > through. The result has been communicated > as "a democratic decision", not as a > tentative opinion poll to aide in decision > making. Nobody has invoked Article 50 yet > but everything in how the UK has handled > this says "we're going to leave". You are reading different papers to me. > What the UK apparently didn't expect is > that the EU's reaction can be summarised > as "Good riddance; don't let the door hit > you on the way out". No, that's exactly what Cameron said would happen - that we'd have to trigger Article 50 the next day.

pluma 10y ago
The reason I pointed out the "fascist EU" bit is because I only recently found out the reason I kept running into Leavers who think the EU is uniquely controlled by Germany: a quote from a prominent pro-Brexit politician (I forgot who it was but I want to say Boris Johnson). > The right-wing parties on the continent are far scarier, and generally have higher support. Don't conflate nationalism with right-wing. The BNP already was a thing. UKIP is just less ostensibly racist. A similar thing happened in Germany actually: the NPD is blatantly racist (though always just constitutional enough to avoid being banned) and the AfD is almost a carbon copy of UKIP (just with more anti-muslim rhetoric as it seems). > You are reading different papers to me. Probably. I'm not even in the UK. However Cameron's speech after the referendum sounded pretty much like "okay, we're leaving but I'm not the PM to do that" and pretty much everything else I saw on BBC World within the days following the referendum sounded like the Brexit has been decided -- plus the various statements by "the remaining 27" EU members certainly are phrased in ways that no longer count the UK as an EU member. > No, that's exactly what Cameron said would happen - that we'd have to trigger Article 50 the next day. I guess I should have avoided saying "the UK" because politics are too complex to put everything in terms like that. The Leave campaign certainly seems dumbstruck they won't get to negotiate prior to triggering Article 50, however. And there are an awful lot of people who seem to think the UK isn't already leaving or that there's still a way -- though I guess that's mostly wishful thinking (or the "bargaining" step on the grief progression).
- peteretep 10y ago
  Pretty sure the idea that the EU is run by Germany is stronger outside the UK than inside it. I absolutely understand a desire to say "fuck 'em" to us Brits, but the margin was tiny, and EU-scepticism is rampant throughout the EU. Please don't pin the sins of our ex-PM on holding a referendum on the whole country - EU history is chock-a-block with countries rejecting various parts of the EU via referendum.
  - pluma 10y ago
    I really don't have anything to add to what you said, just wanted to say thanks for a civilised discussion. I personally hope the UK will stay because I would hate to see them leave but I'm not sure what would be better for the EU from a pragmatic point of view (rather than my idealistic one). OTOH if the UK leaves I'm excited to see what will happen with Scotland. Not like I personally can do anything but watch, either way.
    - peteretep 10y ago
      I personally hope they stay too :-) Came across this figure earlier: > according to News channel N24, 62% of Germans now > want decision-making powers transferred from Brussels > back to Berlin" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36710399 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36710399

pluma 10y ago

The reason I pointed out the "fascist EU" bit is because I only recently found out the reason I kept running into Leavers who think the EU is uniquely controlled by Germany: a quote from a prominent pro-Brexit politician (I forgot who it was but I want to say Boris Johnson). > The right-wing parties on the continent are far scarier, and generally have higher support. Don't conflate nationalism with right-wing. The BNP already was a thing. UKIP is just less ostensibly racist. A similar thing happened in Germany actually: the NPD is blatantly racist (though always just constitutional enough to avoid being banned) and the AfD is almost a carbon copy of UKIP (just with more anti-muslim rhetoric as it seems). > You are reading different papers to me. Probably. I'm not even in the UK. However Cameron's speech after the referendum sounded pretty much like "okay, we're leaving but I'm not the PM to do that" and pretty much everything else I saw on BBC World within the days following the referendum sounded like the Brexit has been decided -- plus the various statements by "the remaining 27" EU members certainly are phrased in ways that no longer count the UK as an EU member. > No, that's exactly what Cameron said would happen - that we'd have to trigger Article 50 the next day. I guess I should have avoided saying "the UK" because politics are too complex to put everything in terms like that. The Leave campaign certainly seems dumbstruck they won't get to negotiate prior to triggering Article 50, however. And there are an awful lot of people who seem to think the UK isn't already leaving or that there's still a way -- though I guess that's mostly wishful thinking (or the "bargaining" step on the grief progression).

peteretep 10y ago
Pretty sure the idea that the EU is run by Germany is stronger outside the UK than inside it. I absolutely understand a desire to say "fuck 'em" to us Brits, but the margin was tiny, and EU-scepticism is rampant throughout the EU. Please don't pin the sins of our ex-PM on holding a referendum on the whole country - EU history is chock-a-block with countries rejecting various parts of the EU via referendum.
- pluma 10y ago
  I really don't have anything to add to what you said, just wanted to say thanks for a civilised discussion. I personally hope the UK will stay because I would hate to see them leave but I'm not sure what would be better for the EU from a pragmatic point of view (rather than my idealistic one). OTOH if the UK leaves I'm excited to see what will happen with Scotland. Not like I personally can do anything but watch, either way.
  - peteretep 10y ago
    I personally hope they stay too :-) Came across this figure earlier: > according to News channel N24, 62% of Germans now > want decision-making powers transferred from Brussels > back to Berlin" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36710399 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36710399