4 ms·

Could it be it's just how it works in USA? I'm a software engineer in London and in the last 2 years I haven't done a single minute of overtime.

malachite3453 10y ago
I'm in the UK too and also a software engineer. Early in ym career I worked in London and sometimes worked over-time to meet some client deadline. I always made sure I got time off in lieu though. Nowadays I resist anything like that, there is 7.5 hours in the day and thats what my employers contract me to. There will ALWAYS be work to do. It never stops. It can wait till tomorrow.
gambiting 10y ago
I'm pretty sure it's just USA. I make a good salary in the North East of UK and I was told multiple times by people from US that I'm crazy to work for that kind of money(If you moved to US, you would easily make 3-4x as much!). And sure, maybe it's true. But I enjoy working 37.5h/week, having 25 paid holiday days a year, unlimited paid sick leave and having a job that I actually like doing - plus I don't really have to think about it once I get home. Healtcare costs me about $100/month in NI contribution, education for my children will be free or almost free - Moving to US for some hypothetical higher salary just does not seem worth it to me at all.
- Grahf 10y ago
  Indeed. Your salary is relative. If you're earning 3-4x more but have to pay 3-4x more on all your expenses, are you really richer? Factor in long hours in general, unpaid overtime, crunch times, a poor work/life ratio in general, etc. It seems like the scales are balanced all wrong. That's my perception as another tech worker living in the UK. I'd love to hear an argument as to why that isn't the case.
  - majewsky 10y ago
    That's also the reason why I love being on part-time. I only get 70% salary, but I get 12 hours more time each week for my own projects, or just for hanging out in the city before sundown.
    - ChilledHands 10y ago
      Have you aways worked part time as a developer? I didn't think it was a common thing but sounds lovely. Can you talk about it some more?
      - eropple 10y ago
        Can't speak to him, but I fluctuate between 24 and 30 hours a week of consulting. I make about as much money as I did as a FT engineer (depending on the project, charging anywhere from $110/hr to $200/hr); dealing with taxes myself is a minor pain in the ass but having a ton of extra time every week is really nice. I did have to bust my ass a bit to get to the point where I had the skillset and the knowledge necessary to do it, but I'm glad I did. That I am at this point is probably some of why I feel freer to criticize the tech industry--I've been on the bottom and I've since largely stepped out, and it's ugly looking in on it.
      - majewsky 10y ago
        I started out full-time, but quickly switched to part-time to do a CS bachelor in parallel (I had a master in physics when I pivoted into IT). Right now, I only have the part-time experience outside of lecture seasons, but I like it very much. I don't have family, so I mainly use the extra time on personal projects or time with friends.
  - jsmith0295 10y ago
    Assuming you had money left over to save, yes, you would be. You would be banking 3-4x as much money, if income and expenses remained proportional
    - nilkn 10y ago
      To clarify this post (which I agree with): Imagine you're making $100 per month right now and spending $95 of it. So you're saving $5 per month. You move to the US and start making $400 per month, but your expenses skyrocket to $380 per month. But you're now saving $20 per month -- four times as much as you were before. Now imagine those savings numbers were $1k and $4k, and the difference becomes a pretty big deal.
      - gambiting 10y ago
        Personally - right now I know that no matter what happens, my employer has to give me at least 3 months notice to fire me - at will employment is something that sounds almost like a bad joke around here. There does not exist any medical emergency, illness or accident, that would put me in any sort of financial difficulty. Even if 20 helicopters were engaged in transporting me to the hospital or if I had to be put on treatment costing 100k/month, I would never pay anything for it, and my NI contribution would not go up. If I lost my job as a result of an accident I would still be 100% covered. My children will never have to worry about student debt, because they either won't have any, or it will be conditional on them working, capped at a certain level and reasonable. At the same time, I make enough to pay mortgage on a 4-bedroom house, have a car that I really like, and have the latest gadgets I like. Sure, I can't afford a rolex or a ferrari - but that's fine with me. Saving more money while working in the US and worrying about the above is just absolutely not worth it to me, but again, that's just my personal opinion.
        nilkn 10y ago
        I didn't mean to suggest you should actually move to the US. Life in the US definitely feels pretty backwards compared to some European countries these days, and your examples show that pretty convincingly. I only meant that, despite just being basic arithmetic, it's somewhat paradoxical that savings rates can go up in extremely high cost-of-living areas. It "feels" like you've gained nothing if your income increases by 4x but your cost of living does as well, but in reality you might actually save considerably more money.
  - crucifiction 10y ago
    Except the only expense likely to be 3-4x more is rent/mortgage. Everything else in the US is going to be the same or cheaper (car, food, gadgets, etc).
    - GFischer 10y ago
      Healthcare is the deal-breaker for many, and it's usually WAY more than 3-4x.
      - crucifiction 10y ago
        It can be. I pay about $400/month for family covergage, this is unusually high for a tech job (many of which have little or no monthly from the employee). So still only $4800 of what might be many tens of thousands of dollars extra. Even $2000/month extra rent is still only $24000 a year, usually a fraction of the higher pay.
- justatdotin 10y ago
  righton
  - dang 10y ago
    Please don't post unsubstantive comments.
contingencies 10y ago
Hehe, perhaps not only theory. I did loads of overtime in London, got a 50% pay rise and allowed to build and manage a team, then sent to the USA with UK holidays but US taxes (lower), free housing and further payrise.
- db48x 10y ago
  I think generalizing in either direction is a waste of time. Surely where you live won't have that much effect on whether you've decided to work overtime or not. Though I suppose it's more popular to start a business in some locations than in others.
  - contingencies 10y ago
    Plural of anecdote!
  - Symbiote 10y ago
    In some countries there are many more rules about working time. For example, in the EU it's not permitted to work more than 48 hours per week on average. As far as I know, that includes "on call" time. http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205 http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intP...
    - roel_v 10y ago
      What does that have to do with anything? Are you implying there is nobody within the EU that works more than 48 hours, or that somehow magically people who call it a day after 40 hours have the same career perspective as those who don't?
      - Symbiote 10y ago
        > A Google site-reliability engineer starts work at 9 a.m., leaves at 7 p.m., and works in the evenings until about 10 p.m. That's 11-12 hours per day, which in the EU would limit him to four working days per week. For someone working normal hours but also on call, if they respond to an incident during the week they're likely to be given e.g. Friday afternoon off in return. > career perspective Did you mean prospects, or something else? I'm sure it makes a difference in some companies, but there are plenty where it doesn't impress anyone.
bmj 10y ago
It depends entirely on your domain. I've been in the software industry for 15 years or so in the U.S., and aside from a couple of stints at start-ups during the first internet bubble/boom, I've rarely worked much overtime. I've worked for the same employer for eight years now, and management's perspective is this: "Sometimes work will require a bit more than 40 hours a week of your time. Sometimes your life will require more. We're okay with that, and understand that there's no magic balancing act. Let's figure that out together." My sense, too, is that the industry tends to attract workaholics.
- acveilleux 10y ago
  Startups attract and value the type of folks who will put in 60 hours every week and get obsessive about it. Sometimes it grows out of the company as it scales up. Other times it gets institutionalized. The Googles of the world are in a weird spot because they made it part of their culture but the financial and industry upside of working for them mean people apply even if they aren't the kind of folks who can work 60h week for 10 years. Who can say no to that kind of pay cheque?
  - chefkoch 10y ago
    > people apply even if they aren't the kind of folks who can work 60h week for 10 years. I think you don't know in advance how long you can stand this before you burn out.
jmngomes 10y ago
In Portugal, most people (to avoid saying everyone) that work in IT regularly work unpaid overtime, unlike most other professions where overtime is (obviously) paid for, and mostly due to poor management, e.g. project manager doesn't want/know how to negotiate an easily defendable deadline extension, or scope change, or budget restriction, or some basic aspect of the project, so he "asks" the team to work overtime or their performance reviews "may" suffer. This is, sadly, in line with the mentality of the country's workforce, that believes that you're only doing your job (good or not) if you're leaving after hours...the result is basically people that are too worn out and/or uncooperative by the time they're 40 or less...

malachite3453 10y ago

I'm in the UK too and also a software engineer. Early in ym career I worked in London and sometimes worked over-time to meet some client deadline. I always made sure I got time off in lieu though. Nowadays I resist anything like that, there is 7.5 hours in the day and thats what my employers contract me to. There will ALWAYS be work to do. It never stops. It can wait till tomorrow.

gambiting 10y ago

I'm pretty sure it's just USA. I make a good salary in the North East of UK and I was told multiple times by people from US that I'm crazy to work for that kind of money(If you moved to US, you would easily make 3-4x as much!). And sure, maybe it's true. But I enjoy working 37.5h/week, having 25 paid holiday days a year, unlimited paid sick leave and having a job that I actually like doing - plus I don't really have to think about it once I get home. Healtcare costs me about $100/month in NI contribution, education for my children will be free or almost free - Moving to US for some hypothetical higher salary just does not seem worth it to me at all.

Grahf 10y ago
Indeed. Your salary is relative. If you're earning 3-4x more but have to pay 3-4x more on all your expenses, are you really richer? Factor in long hours in general, unpaid overtime, crunch times, a poor work/life ratio in general, etc. It seems like the scales are balanced all wrong. That's my perception as another tech worker living in the UK. I'd love to hear an argument as to why that isn't the case.
- majewsky 10y ago
  That's also the reason why I love being on part-time. I only get 70% salary, but I get 12 hours more time each week for my own projects, or just for hanging out in the city before sundown.
  - ChilledHands 10y ago
    Have you aways worked part time as a developer? I didn't think it was a common thing but sounds lovely. Can you talk about it some more?
    - eropple 10y ago
      Can't speak to him, but I fluctuate between 24 and 30 hours a week of consulting. I make about as much money as I did as a FT engineer (depending on the project, charging anywhere from $110/hr to $200/hr); dealing with taxes myself is a minor pain in the ass but having a ton of extra time every week is really nice. I did have to bust my ass a bit to get to the point where I had the skillset and the knowledge necessary to do it, but I'm glad I did. That I am at this point is probably some of why I feel freer to criticize the tech industry--I've been on the bottom and I've since largely stepped out, and it's ugly looking in on it.
    - majewsky 10y ago
      I started out full-time, but quickly switched to part-time to do a CS bachelor in parallel (I had a master in physics when I pivoted into IT). Right now, I only have the part-time experience outside of lecture seasons, but I like it very much. I don't have family, so I mainly use the extra time on personal projects or time with friends.
- jsmith0295 10y ago
  Assuming you had money left over to save, yes, you would be. You would be banking 3-4x as much money, if income and expenses remained proportional
  - nilkn 10y ago
    To clarify this post (which I agree with): Imagine you're making $100 per month right now and spending $95 of it. So you're saving $5 per month. You move to the US and start making $400 per month, but your expenses skyrocket to $380 per month. But you're now saving $20 per month -- four times as much as you were before. Now imagine those savings numbers were $1k and $4k, and the difference becomes a pretty big deal.
    - gambiting 10y ago
      Personally - right now I know that no matter what happens, my employer has to give me at least 3 months notice to fire me - at will employment is something that sounds almost like a bad joke around here. There does not exist any medical emergency, illness or accident, that would put me in any sort of financial difficulty. Even if 20 helicopters were engaged in transporting me to the hospital or if I had to be put on treatment costing 100k/month, I would never pay anything for it, and my NI contribution would not go up. If I lost my job as a result of an accident I would still be 100% covered. My children will never have to worry about student debt, because they either won't have any, or it will be conditional on them working, capped at a certain level and reasonable. At the same time, I make enough to pay mortgage on a 4-bedroom house, have a car that I really like, and have the latest gadgets I like. Sure, I can't afford a rolex or a ferrari - but that's fine with me. Saving more money while working in the US and worrying about the above is just absolutely not worth it to me, but again, that's just my personal opinion.
      - nilkn 10y ago
        I didn't mean to suggest you should actually move to the US. Life in the US definitely feels pretty backwards compared to some European countries these days, and your examples show that pretty convincingly. I only meant that, despite just being basic arithmetic, it's somewhat paradoxical that savings rates can go up in extremely high cost-of-living areas. It "feels" like you've gained nothing if your income increases by 4x but your cost of living does as well, but in reality you might actually save considerably more money.
- crucifiction 10y ago
  Except the only expense likely to be 3-4x more is rent/mortgage. Everything else in the US is going to be the same or cheaper (car, food, gadgets, etc).
  - GFischer 10y ago
    Healthcare is the deal-breaker for many, and it's usually WAY more than 3-4x.
    - crucifiction 10y ago
      It can be. I pay about $400/month for family covergage, this is unusually high for a tech job (many of which have little or no monthly from the employee). So still only $4800 of what might be many tens of thousands of dollars extra. Even $2000/month extra rent is still only $24000 a year, usually a fraction of the higher pay.
justatdotin 10y ago
righton
- dang 10y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments.

contingencies 10y ago

Hehe, perhaps not only theory. I did loads of overtime in London, got a 50% pay rise and allowed to build and manage a team, then sent to the USA with UK holidays but US taxes (lower), free housing and further payrise.

db48x 10y ago
I think generalizing in either direction is a waste of time. Surely where you live won't have that much effect on whether you've decided to work overtime or not. Though I suppose it's more popular to start a business in some locations than in others.
- contingencies 10y ago
  Plural of anecdote!
- Symbiote 10y ago
  In some countries there are many more rules about working time. For example, in the EU it's not permitted to work more than 48 hours per week on average. As far as I know, that includes "on call" time. http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intPageId=205 http://ec.europa.eu/social/main.jsp?catId=706&langId=en&intP...
  - roel_v 10y ago
    What does that have to do with anything? Are you implying there is nobody within the EU that works more than 48 hours, or that somehow magically people who call it a day after 40 hours have the same career perspective as those who don't?
    - Symbiote 10y ago
      > A Google site-reliability engineer starts work at 9 a.m., leaves at 7 p.m., and works in the evenings until about 10 p.m. That's 11-12 hours per day, which in the EU would limit him to four working days per week. For someone working normal hours but also on call, if they respond to an incident during the week they're likely to be given e.g. Friday afternoon off in return. > career perspective Did you mean prospects, or something else? I'm sure it makes a difference in some companies, but there are plenty where it doesn't impress anyone.

bmj 10y ago

It depends entirely on your domain. I've been in the software industry for 15 years or so in the U.S., and aside from a couple of stints at start-ups during the first internet bubble/boom, I've rarely worked much overtime. I've worked for the same employer for eight years now, and management's perspective is this: "Sometimes work will require a bit more than 40 hours a week of your time. Sometimes your life will require more. We're okay with that, and understand that there's no magic balancing act. Let's figure that out together." My sense, too, is that the industry tends to attract workaholics.

acveilleux 10y ago
Startups attract and value the type of folks who will put in 60 hours every week and get obsessive about it. Sometimes it grows out of the company as it scales up. Other times it gets institutionalized. The Googles of the world are in a weird spot because they made it part of their culture but the financial and industry upside of working for them mean people apply even if they aren't the kind of folks who can work 60h week for 10 years. Who can say no to that kind of pay cheque?
- chefkoch 10y ago
  > people apply even if they aren't the kind of folks who can work 60h week for 10 years. I think you don't know in advance how long you can stand this before you burn out.

jmngomes 10y ago

In Portugal, most people (to avoid saying everyone) that work in IT regularly work unpaid overtime, unlike most other professions where overtime is (obviously) paid for, and mostly due to poor management, e.g. project manager doesn't want/know how to negotiate an easily defendable deadline extension, or scope change, or budget restriction, or some basic aspect of the project, so he "asks" the team to work overtime or their performance reviews "may" suffer. This is, sadly, in line with the mentality of the country's workforce, that believes that you're only doing your job (good or not) if you're leaving after hours...the result is basically people that are too worn out and/or uncooperative by the time they're 40 or less...