8 ms·

I'd argue this is a positive trend. Hopefully it leads to more innovation in governance.

by mrmffh 10y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
And has it been positive in practice so far?
LoSboccacc 10y ago
I see it as the perfect storm, trust collapse is causing apathy, not desire to reform. when they say government is migrating toward a gerontocracy is not just because politician are from the older classes, but also because younger participate less in the democratic debate, whether in the first line or by voting. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Uk_general_election_2005_by_age.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Uk_general_el... https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/9/25/1348584518824/Voter-registration-by-age-008.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=86ceb3e78c1dbe61afe66b08d8756f0f https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pict...
- tonyedgecombe 10y ago
  We didn't have apathy in the recent UK referendum, voter turnout was very high.
  - Sacho 10y ago
    Voter turnout among the young was half compared to voter turnout by the elderly, I think, so that would reinforce parent's point. Here's a FT article with a graph* of voter turnout by age - https://next.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473496f https://next.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473... - it seems like, besides one particular anomaly, voter turnout among young people has been steadily declining and Brexit was a continuation of that trend. * the graph in question - https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.ft.com%2Fftdata%2Ffiles%2F2016%2F07%2FScreen-Shot-2016-07-01-at-02.39.41.png?source=next&fit=scale-down&width=600 https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2F...
  - rinze 10y ago
    If I understand correctly, there was a significant gap between the turnout rate for the young people and the turnout rate for the elderly. https://next.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473496f https://next.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473...
    - JBReefer 10y ago
      So? Are young people inherently more valuable or more correct?
      - LoSboccacc 10y ago
        no, but are underrepresented because the mistrust trend seems to hit them harder and in a bad way. also, while I'd argue older people have more world experience, they are also disconnected from society advancements (which is a struggle as old as dirt) and I'd say a healthy society needs not just voting to act as an average between the groups but a dialogue where input from both sides are taken for advancement. to be honest I'm in the apathy group myself, not because I mistrust politician but because I mistrust a system that promotes a dichotomy between winners and losers on interest groups instead of leveraging both sides needs and wants synergically
      - ionised 10y ago
        No, but they have a lot more riding on the future of their country than pensioners do.
collyw 10y ago
All I see is more draconian measures put in place to keep the status quo (i.e. keeping the rich rich). Nothing positive in that.
mtreis86 10y ago
I agree. I find groups of people scary. Not in the anxiety manner. I mean that I don't know of a single instance of a person doing massive damage to anyone or any thing, when compared to damage by groups or by people with group backing. All the worst atrocities of the past few centuries were carried out by groups of people. The US constitution is supposed to protect individuals from groups, but that seems to have been (mostly) subverted in the name of preserving our institutions (banking).
- marklgr 10y ago
  But humans mostly want to be part of some group, and that's the problem with the current trend of ultra-individualism: people will be much easier to influence by dangerous groups that fill their need for belonging. If there were a stronger sense of community in the first place, instead of the strong emphasis on the autonomous, self-sufficient and competing individual, one could wonder if radical religious or ultranationist groups would be as significant.
  - mtreis86 10y ago
    I agree with the hierarchy generally followed by emergency management systems - protect yourself first and your family, then your neighborhood, then if they are all safe help the wider community.
m-i-l 10y ago
Like there was plenty of "political innovation", especially in Europe, after the Great Depression in the 1930s? I'd argue that didn't work out too well. Hopefully this time its different.
- SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
  You can hope, but does Trump and brexit look different? And if so, does it look better?
  - m-i-l 10y ago
    I think that was the point of the original article - the mistrust of "authority" following the financial crisis is leading to irrational behaviour such as blind faith in charismatic leaders (who are typically reactionary rather than progressive). Based on historical precedents (e.g. the swing to political extremes following the Great Depression) I don't think this is "positive trend" for a brighter better future, but I hope I'm wrong.
  - sievebrain 10y ago
    Yes, very. Brexit was a decision about a policy, Trump is a decision about a man. The key personalities of Brexit are now all gone. What remains is the policy.
    - m-i-l 10y ago
      Brexit should have been a decision about policy, but appears not to have been - that is one of the points of the article. The EU appears to have been too complex a subject for many voters to fully understand, and there was allegedly widespread distrust of the "experts", leading to large numbers basing their decision on emotional responses instead, such as "I don't trust the experts so I'm going to do the opposite of what they recommend" and "I like this bloke who talks about listening to the 'little people' and 'taking back control'". I know there are some people who voted Leave for well-thought-out reasons, and that I can respect, because it is rational. But most analysis suggests the majority who voted Leave did not do so for rational reasons. In which case it is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. And it is not as though this was a local or a general election - this has made England and Wales look very bad on the world stage, and is something we're all going to have to live with for a very long time.

I'd argue this is a positive trend. Hopefully it leads to more innovation in governance.

by mrmffh 10y ago

I'd argue this is a positive trend. Hopefully it leads to more innovation in governance.

SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago

And has it been positive in practice so far?

LoSboccacc 10y ago

I see it as the perfect storm, trust collapse is causing apathy, not desire to reform. when they say government is migrating toward a gerontocracy is not just because politician are from the older classes, but also because younger participate less in the democratic debate, whether in the first line or by voting. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Uk_general_election_2005_by_age.png https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/35/Uk_general_el... https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/9/25/1348584518824/Voter-registration-by-age-008.jpg?w=620&q=55&auto=format&usm=12&fit=max&s=86ceb3e78c1dbe61afe66b08d8756f0f https://i.guim.co.uk/img/static/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pict...

tonyedgecombe 10y ago
We didn't have apathy in the recent UK referendum, voter turnout was very high.
- Sacho 10y ago
  Voter turnout among the young was half compared to voter turnout by the elderly, I think, so that would reinforce parent's point. Here's a FT article with a graph* of voter turnout by age - https://next.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473496f https://next.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473... - it seems like, besides one particular anomaly, voter turnout among young people has been steadily declining and Brexit was a continuation of that trend. * the graph in question - https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2Fblogs.ft.com%2Fftdata%2Ffiles%2F2016%2F07%2FScreen-Shot-2016-07-01-at-02.39.41.png?source=next&fit=scale-down&width=600 https://next-geebee.ft.com/image/v1/images/raw/http%3A%2F%2F...
- rinze 10y ago
  If I understand correctly, there was a significant gap between the turnout rate for the young people and the turnout rate for the elderly. https://next.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473496f https://next.ft.com/content/2994afe4-43b0-3763-a80c-92351473...
  - JBReefer 10y ago
    So? Are young people inherently more valuable or more correct?
    - LoSboccacc 10y ago
      no, but are underrepresented because the mistrust trend seems to hit them harder and in a bad way. also, while I'd argue older people have more world experience, they are also disconnected from society advancements (which is a struggle as old as dirt) and I'd say a healthy society needs not just voting to act as an average between the groups but a dialogue where input from both sides are taken for advancement. to be honest I'm in the apathy group myself, not because I mistrust politician but because I mistrust a system that promotes a dichotomy between winners and losers on interest groups instead of leveraging both sides needs and wants synergically
    - ionised 10y ago
      No, but they have a lot more riding on the future of their country than pensioners do.

collyw 10y ago

All I see is more draconian measures put in place to keep the status quo (i.e. keeping the rich rich). Nothing positive in that.

mtreis86 10y ago

I agree. I find groups of people scary. Not in the anxiety manner. I mean that I don't know of a single instance of a person doing massive damage to anyone or any thing, when compared to damage by groups or by people with group backing. All the worst atrocities of the past few centuries were carried out by groups of people. The US constitution is supposed to protect individuals from groups, but that seems to have been (mostly) subverted in the name of preserving our institutions (banking).

marklgr 10y ago
But humans mostly want to be part of some group, and that's the problem with the current trend of ultra-individualism: people will be much easier to influence by dangerous groups that fill their need for belonging. If there were a stronger sense of community in the first place, instead of the strong emphasis on the autonomous, self-sufficient and competing individual, one could wonder if radical religious or ultranationist groups would be as significant.
- mtreis86 10y ago
  I agree with the hierarchy generally followed by emergency management systems - protect yourself first and your family, then your neighborhood, then if they are all safe help the wider community.

m-i-l 10y ago

Like there was plenty of "political innovation", especially in Europe, after the Great Depression in the 1930s? I'd argue that didn't work out too well. Hopefully this time its different.

SideburnsOfDoom 10y ago
You can hope, but does Trump and brexit look different? And if so, does it look better?
- m-i-l 10y ago
  I think that was the point of the original article - the mistrust of "authority" following the financial crisis is leading to irrational behaviour such as blind faith in charismatic leaders (who are typically reactionary rather than progressive). Based on historical precedents (e.g. the swing to political extremes following the Great Depression) I don't think this is "positive trend" for a brighter better future, but I hope I'm wrong.
- sievebrain 10y ago
  Yes, very. Brexit was a decision about a policy, Trump is a decision about a man. The key personalities of Brexit are now all gone. What remains is the policy.
  - m-i-l 10y ago
    Brexit should have been a decision about policy, but appears not to have been - that is one of the points of the article. The EU appears to have been too complex a subject for many voters to fully understand, and there was allegedly widespread distrust of the "experts", leading to large numbers basing their decision on emotional responses instead, such as "I don't trust the experts so I'm going to do the opposite of what they recommend" and "I like this bloke who talks about listening to the 'little people' and 'taking back control'". I know there are some people who voted Leave for well-thought-out reasons, and that I can respect, because it is rational. But most analysis suggests the majority who voted Leave did not do so for rational reasons. In which case it is like cutting off your nose to spite your face. And it is not as though this was a local or a general election - this has made England and Wales look very bad on the world stage, and is something we're all going to have to live with for a very long time.