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I didn't downvote your comment, but I do want to provide a response for anyone else reading: This comic gets linked quite a lot when discussing new systems, an

I didn't downvote your comment, but I do want to provide a response for anyone else reading: This comic gets linked quite a lot when discussing new systems, and I and many others see it as a fairly low-effort jab. I'd venture a guess that anyone reading HN has seen this comic before, and the creators of systems like Matrix are certainly not oblivious to it as common criticism. While there is danger of becoming yet another variation that doesn't "win" or solve problems in a meaningful way, the folks developing systems like Matrix think they can do more to help by approaching these problems in a new way than they can by throwing up their hands and living with the problems, and I think that effort deserves respect. It'd be more constructive to do some reading about the protocol, become more familiar with it, and share more specific criticisms that concern you than to drop a link to the comic everyone has seen before.

_pmf_ 10y ago
The problem is that Matrix is positioned right in the middle of the train wreck of unfulfilled promises left behind by Google Wave, XMPP and (for those of enough to remember it) Chandler[0]. It's something that a lot of people (including myself) really, really want to succeed, but all previous trials failed (even when only E-mail was around; now we have the data silos by Twitter and Facebook that are additional obstacles). Even after almost a decade, the well is still poisoned for everyone from Google's botched Wave rollout; if even Google (with the tremendous leverage of Gmail) was unable to pivot communication is this direction, who will? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandler_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandler_(software)
- Perceptes 10y ago
  I definitely understand the skepticism. If you search my HN comment history, you'll even find me saying that I'm skeptical that Matrix will achieve widespread success, too. But I still think the way to overcome that is to keep trying. The main edge that Matrix has over previous systems like Google Wave and XMPP is that it's been designed from the start to be bridged to other systems, rather than trying to fight them for mindshare. This means that Matrix can grow and be useful even if people don't "switch" from their existing systems to Matrix. That aspect of Matrix does make me hopeful and optimistic about its future.
  - 1wd 10y ago
    Wasn't that exactly the idea of XMPP as well? (e.g. gateways to ICQ etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP#Connecting_to_other_protocols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP#Connecting_to_other_proto...
    - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
      Yeah, but XMPP never really did that. It just had the potential. In the same way, yes, you CAN link IRC to Slack and XMPP, but how many people have?
      - cxk 10y ago
        Then me using ICQ and MSN transports with XMPP 10 years ago was just a fantasy and all the transports installable for ejabberd do not exist ? It's all just potential ?
- Arathorn 10y ago
  We have all been bitten by the unfulfilled promises of Wave, XMPP, Chandler (yes, I tried to use it), Psyc, SIP, etc etc That doesn't mean that we should give up. One technology will finally get the right balance and take off, by learning from the mistakes of the precursors. Maybe that will be Matrix; maybe we will be another stepping stone in the journey - who knows. One thing for sure is that big commercial for-profits like Google are absolutely not the best positioned to fix problems of cross-industry collaboration and defragmentation. Which is why Matrix attempts it as a neutral non-profit.
tedunangst 10y ago
Doesn't everybody think they can do better? The xkcd people also knew about the 14 previous standards which they could have tried improving. But they had a new approach, never before attempted, to finally solve the problem for real.
- Perceptes 10y ago
  My criticism is not of the comic itself (which is obviously very relevant and a legitimate concern), it's of the glib way the commenter I was replying to simply dropped a link to it as their only input on the conversation.

_pmf_ 10y ago

The problem is that Matrix is positioned right in the middle of the train wreck of unfulfilled promises left behind by Google Wave, XMPP and (for those of enough to remember it) Chandler[0]. It's something that a lot of people (including myself) really, really want to succeed, but all previous trials failed (even when only E-mail was around; now we have the data silos by Twitter and Facebook that are additional obstacles). Even after almost a decade, the well is still poisoned for everyone from Google's botched Wave rollout; if even Google (with the tremendous leverage of Gmail) was unable to pivot communication is this direction, who will? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandler_(software) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chandler_(software)

Perceptes 10y ago
I definitely understand the skepticism. If you search my HN comment history, you'll even find me saying that I'm skeptical that Matrix will achieve widespread success, too. But I still think the way to overcome that is to keep trying. The main edge that Matrix has over previous systems like Google Wave and XMPP is that it's been designed from the start to be bridged to other systems, rather than trying to fight them for mindshare. This means that Matrix can grow and be useful even if people don't "switch" from their existing systems to Matrix. That aspect of Matrix does make me hopeful and optimistic about its future.
- 1wd 10y ago
  Wasn't that exactly the idea of XMPP as well? (e.g. gateways to ICQ etc.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP#Connecting_to_other_protocols https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/XMPP#Connecting_to_other_proto...
  - qwertyuiop924 10y ago
    Yeah, but XMPP never really did that. It just had the potential. In the same way, yes, you CAN link IRC to Slack and XMPP, but how many people have?
    - cxk 10y ago
      Then me using ICQ and MSN transports with XMPP 10 years ago was just a fantasy and all the transports installable for ejabberd do not exist ? It's all just potential ?
Arathorn 10y ago
We have all been bitten by the unfulfilled promises of Wave, XMPP, Chandler (yes, I tried to use it), Psyc, SIP, etc etc That doesn't mean that we should give up. One technology will finally get the right balance and take off, by learning from the mistakes of the precursors. Maybe that will be Matrix; maybe we will be another stepping stone in the journey - who knows. One thing for sure is that big commercial for-profits like Google are absolutely not the best positioned to fix problems of cross-industry collaboration and defragmentation. Which is why Matrix attempts it as a neutral non-profit.

tedunangst 10y ago

Doesn't everybody think they can do better? The xkcd people also knew about the 14 previous standards which they could have tried improving. But they had a new approach, never before attempted, to finally solve the problem for real.

Perceptes 10y ago
My criticism is not of the comic itself (which is obviously very relevant and a legitimate concern), it's of the glib way the commenter I was replying to simply dropped a link to it as their only input on the conversation.