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> I have yet to come across any concept in any human language that can’t be expressed in English. And all turing-complete programming languages are technically

> I have yet to come across any concept in any human language that can’t be expressed in English. And all turing-complete programming languages are technically equivalent; what's your point?

danieltillett 10y ago
That there is no knowledge that can't be communicated in English. Actually not all languages are equivalent because many concepts can only be expressed in English as all other languages lack the vocabulary to express many scientific and technical concepts. Right now English really is the only language that can be used to express a lot of concepts.
- Razengan 10y ago
  And most of those scientific and technical words in English are actually borrowed from other languages in the first place. Even the words "science" and "technique" and "compute." Latin and French. Basic stuff like "icon." Greek. "Algebra" and "alcohol" and some other words that start with "al-"; Arabic. I could go on to force the point but it already feels bizarre having to point out the obvious.. If English can wantonly borrow from other languages then pretend it's the only language that can express these things, why can't other languages borrow those words from English and pretend they're a part of them?
  - danieltillett 10y ago
    It is not that you can’t in principle express any concept in any other language, just that in most cases the vocabulary doesn’t exist in that language. In Newton’s time it was not possible to write most scientific papers in English as English lacked the required terms and concepts (everyone wrote in Latin). For a whole series of historical reasons English has become the international language of science resulting in most new concepts only being expressible in English. We could of course change to a new language, but we would need to make up new terms to map all the existing concept onto in this new language. It might happen in the future, but right now there is no major effort to move science from English.
    - Razengan 10y ago
      > just that in most cases the vocabulary doesn’t exist in that language. Again you keep insisting that certain vocabulary doesn't exist in other languages, right after I provided some examples of vocabulary that do/did not exist in English! If a language decides to incorporate, say, "science" into its vocabulary, does that make it any more limited than English when English itself took the word from French/Latin? The argument in this thread was never about vocabulary, as all languages have been borrowing from each other since forever and are free to keep doing so. English does not have a trademark on words, especially ones that it itself took from other languages. The initial point was that you lose nuance, intent, conciseness and artistic value. Take "throwing star" versus "shuriken", or "raw seafood" against "sushi." Does English have words for those objects or concepts? "Throwing star" is a clumsy phrase that has to be disambiguated from a solar star, or is it a celebrity known for his or her throwing skills? Many poems, jokes or idioms fall apart right away when translated literally, or lose their punch or intended effect when "explained" in another language. The world would be an insanely dull and boring place with just one language.
      - danieltillett 10y ago
        I think you have missed my point. On your final point I don't think the world would be be an insanely dull and boring place with just one language. It would be a different world, but not dull.
      - philh 10y ago
        > Take "throwing star" versus "shuriken", or "raw seafood" against "sushi." Does English have words for those objects or concepts? Um, yes. It has the words "shuriken" and "sushi". We didn't invent those words, but we found them useful, so we kept them. Presumably, if the cultures that used lots of shuriken and ate lots of sushi had been English-speaking, they would still have invented words for them.
- ktRolster 10y ago
  Alan Perlis said, "A programming language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." Similarly, it might be said that a human language that doesn't affect your world-view is not worth learning. The language is the door to the culture.
  - technomancy 10y ago
    Bingo. I've learned more about English itself the past couple years studying Thai than I have since I was a young child; particularly how daft our orthography is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonemic_orthography#Defective_orthographies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonemic_orthography#Defective... One of the strengths of English is that it adapts by assimilation from other language; if it were the only language around it would stagnate.
- khedoros 10y ago
  Where another language lacks the vocabulary, the concept could be expressed through explanation, or through assimilation of that word from English, construction of a new word that makes etymological sense, etc. There isn't anything extra that can be done in English that couldn't be done in another language to express new concepts.
  - danieltillett 10y ago
    This is true, but it is a massive job to do this translation so it does not get done. Many scientific concepts are only known by a handful of people in the world (i.e. those formed at the cutting edge) and are only able to be expressed in English. There is nothing inherently superior about English as a language (other than it being my native language), just that it is the common language of science and so it is the language in which the majority of new concepts are communicated.
thanatropism 10y ago
Philosophy for one is full of untranslatable subtle distinctions. German has "Seiendes" x "Sein". French has "l'étant x l'étre". English has just "being"; and then people think Heidegger is gibberish.

> I have yet to come across any concept in any human language that can’t be expressed in English. And all turing-complete programming languages are technically equivalent; what's your point?

danieltillett 10y ago

That there is no knowledge that can't be communicated in English. Actually not all languages are equivalent because many concepts can only be expressed in English as all other languages lack the vocabulary to express many scientific and technical concepts. Right now English really is the only language that can be used to express a lot of concepts.

Razengan 10y ago
And most of those scientific and technical words in English are actually borrowed from other languages in the first place. Even the words "science" and "technique" and "compute." Latin and French. Basic stuff like "icon." Greek. "Algebra" and "alcohol" and some other words that start with "al-"; Arabic. I could go on to force the point but it already feels bizarre having to point out the obvious.. If English can wantonly borrow from other languages then pretend it's the only language that can express these things, why can't other languages borrow those words from English and pretend they're a part of them?
- danieltillett 10y ago
  It is not that you can’t in principle express any concept in any other language, just that in most cases the vocabulary doesn’t exist in that language. In Newton’s time it was not possible to write most scientific papers in English as English lacked the required terms and concepts (everyone wrote in Latin). For a whole series of historical reasons English has become the international language of science resulting in most new concepts only being expressible in English. We could of course change to a new language, but we would need to make up new terms to map all the existing concept onto in this new language. It might happen in the future, but right now there is no major effort to move science from English.
  - Razengan 10y ago
    > just that in most cases the vocabulary doesn’t exist in that language. Again you keep insisting that certain vocabulary doesn't exist in other languages, right after I provided some examples of vocabulary that do/did not exist in English! If a language decides to incorporate, say, "science" into its vocabulary, does that make it any more limited than English when English itself took the word from French/Latin? The argument in this thread was never about vocabulary, as all languages have been borrowing from each other since forever and are free to keep doing so. English does not have a trademark on words, especially ones that it itself took from other languages. The initial point was that you lose nuance, intent, conciseness and artistic value. Take "throwing star" versus "shuriken", or "raw seafood" against "sushi." Does English have words for those objects or concepts? "Throwing star" is a clumsy phrase that has to be disambiguated from a solar star, or is it a celebrity known for his or her throwing skills? Many poems, jokes or idioms fall apart right away when translated literally, or lose their punch or intended effect when "explained" in another language. The world would be an insanely dull and boring place with just one language.
    - danieltillett 10y ago
      I think you have missed my point. On your final point I don't think the world would be be an insanely dull and boring place with just one language. It would be a different world, but not dull.
    - philh 10y ago
      > Take "throwing star" versus "shuriken", or "raw seafood" against "sushi." Does English have words for those objects or concepts? Um, yes. It has the words "shuriken" and "sushi". We didn't invent those words, but we found them useful, so we kept them. Presumably, if the cultures that used lots of shuriken and ate lots of sushi had been English-speaking, they would still have invented words for them.
ktRolster 10y ago
Alan Perlis said, "A programming language that doesn't affect the way you think about programming, is not worth knowing." Similarly, it might be said that a human language that doesn't affect your world-view is not worth learning. The language is the door to the culture.
- technomancy 10y ago
  Bingo. I've learned more about English itself the past couple years studying Thai than I have since I was a young child; particularly how daft our orthography is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonemic_orthography#Defective_orthographies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phonemic_orthography#Defective... One of the strengths of English is that it adapts by assimilation from other language; if it were the only language around it would stagnate.
khedoros 10y ago
Where another language lacks the vocabulary, the concept could be expressed through explanation, or through assimilation of that word from English, construction of a new word that makes etymological sense, etc. There isn't anything extra that can be done in English that couldn't be done in another language to express new concepts.
- danieltillett 10y ago
  This is true, but it is a massive job to do this translation so it does not get done. Many scientific concepts are only known by a handful of people in the world (i.e. those formed at the cutting edge) and are only able to be expressed in English. There is nothing inherently superior about English as a language (other than it being my native language), just that it is the common language of science and so it is the language in which the majority of new concepts are communicated.

thanatropism 10y ago

Philosophy for one is full of untranslatable subtle distinctions. German has "Seiendes" x "Sein". French has "l'étant x l'étre". English has just "being"; and then people think Heidegger is gibberish.