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For different versions of this argument see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect. Bostrom said: "A lot of cutting e

by Rauchg 10y ago

For different versions of this argument see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_effect. Bostrom said: "A lot of cutting edge AI has filtered into general applications, often without being called AI because once something becomes useful enough and common enough it's not labelled AI anymore". Finally, the problem with all these articles is the lack of precise definition for the terminology involved (it reminds me of debates about "consciousness"). Recipe: make a slight twist on the interpretation of the already-vague definition of the term and a new essay emerges. In this case, the author is equating "AI" to "Abstraction". All the things he mentions he doesn't understand, he could understand by looking them up and talking to the experts, but he doesn't have to, because the appropriate simple interfaces are in place. That's intelligence in its general form, where's the artificial part?

JoBrad 10y ago
It's generally accepted that any intelligence that isn't from a living being is artificial. Global Civilization isn't living, per se.
- ccccc0 10y ago
  I'd argue that Global Civilization is nothing but living!
  - scrollaway 10y ago
    I read a comment on HN a while back arguing that today's companies are essentially human-powered AIs. It made me think quite a lot -- large companies especially take a lifeform of their own. They tend to mostly care for themselves. Actions are taken "for the company" without any one person being actively aware of why. Higher-ups have some form of backdoor access to the direction the company takes; a symbiotic relationship with what is, in a way, a parasite.
    - Joof 10y ago
      Many larger systems are more than the sum of their parts. Enough that you could consider the grouping it's own entity. Ant hills are the canonical example because individual ants are recognizable as 'animals', but the function of an anthill clearly relies on a complex interaction between more simple ants. Just as we are made of tiny organisms, bigger systems could be considered to be made of us.
      - kirrent 10y ago
        Hofstadter wrote a nice piece on how an ant colony could be thought to be an entity in itself. My favourite quote pasted from an online source: Anteater: "I reject holism. I challenge you to tell me, for instance, how a holistic description of an ant colony sheds any more light on it than is shed by a description of the ants inside it, and their roles, and their, interrelationships. Any holistic explanation of an ant colony will inevitably fall far short of explaining where the consciousness experienced by an ant colony arises from."
        mdpopescu 10y ago
        Unfortunately, this argument proves too much. Replace "and colony" with "human" and "ant" with "cell in a human body" - can you explain where the consciousness experienced by a human cell colony arises from? (To avoid debating materialism vs idealism use another creature, say "chimp", instead of "human" - assuming that you agree that chimps have a consciousness.) I am not fond of the holistic / emergent idea but I don't think "we can't figure out the exact place where the sum becomes larger than its parts" is a good argument against it.
        jameshart 10y ago
        Hofstadter's anteater is a character in a dialog. You shouldn't assume it presents the author's conclusions directly. Indeed the point of the anteater is that with respect to ants, it's hardly an impartial source.
        Joof 10y ago
- getgoingnow 10y ago
  Could you offer an abstract definition of "life" and "intelligence" (or maybe even 'thinking' or 'consciousness') ? For example, if you're trying to figure out whether something is 'moving', you would define the term in such a way that it could apply to planets or animals or other things/systems. If you define 'motion' = 'humans putting one leg in front of another', then of course non-human animals or anything else couldn't move. But, that definition is too restrictive. If you're trying to say that animals can't move, then provide a more abstract definition of 'motion' (e.g. 'change in location') and then you will see animals and many other things start moving. Here is a video with a good explanation of how a lack of an abstract definition results in confusion: https://youtu.be/_Wvv-bt9SzI?t=11s
  - JoBrad 10y ago
    No, I couldn't. It's terribly difficult to define, and the more you try, the harder it becomes. I think it's a bit easier if you try to generally define it in terms of what we think it isn't: the average layperson would consider any intelligence created by humans to be artificial, such as "artificial cells" or other "AI" like Watson. That's what I meant by "generally accepted" but I realize that my comment reflected very little of the thoughts I had when I made it. Using that definition, Global Civilization, regardless of how complex it has become, is nearly entirely created by humans. Ignoring the "human" part of Oxford's definition for civilization[1], you could say that certain groups of animals do have a form of civilization: some dolphins and killer whales, for example, teach their children very specialized hunting and recreational methods that others within their species do not know. But no other animal engages in anything at the scale of Global Civilization. In that sense, Global Civilization is an artificial construct (intelligence, if you like). I'm not arguing that it isn't intelligence. It's almost like a virus, really, in that it can't do anything by itself (it requires humans), but it certainly has life-like characteristics when powered by a "host." [1] http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/civilization http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...
roymurdock 10y ago
A lot of the arguments/heated debates on HN stem from a failure to define key terms. Less so in threads on compsci-related topics, but almost always on threads with econ-related topics. Especially universal basic income. Once you identify this common issue it becomes easy to avoid these frustrating (and frustrated) conversations altogether. Eno has taken a pretty liberal view of "AI" but he makes a good point about specialization. I would define the concept he's getting at as "collective social memory," but I enjoyed his musings nonetheless.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- xrange 10y ago
  >A lot of the arguments/heated debates on HN stem from a failure to define key terms. ... Especially universal basic income. Can you recommend some definitions that are a good starting place for basic income discussions that we could helpfully point to when discussing that issue?
  - vec 10y ago
    There are actually two slightly different ideas that are called UBI. The libertarian variant is a relatively small guaranteed income (usually roughly the current minimum wage), is usually paid for with a VAT or sales tax, and replaces most or all of the current welfare programs. The main objectives are to provide a safety net for the poorest citizens in a fairer and less bureaucratic manner and to somewhat equalize the bargaining power between low-wage workers and their employers, usually as an alternative to unionization. The socialist variant is significantly larger (living wage), is usually paid for with graduated income or capital gains taxes, and supplements rather than replaces the existing welfare programs. Its main goals are to provide a direct mechanism for income redistribution and to facilitate non-profitable professions (artist, full-time volunteer, professional student, stay at home caretaker, etc.) for those that want or need them. There's obviously a lot of overlap between the two, and most proponents support both sets of objectives to some degree. That said, most of the contentious arguments seem to derive from critics either not understanding the difference between the two proposals or strawmanning their interlocutors into one extreme or the other.
Houshalter 10y ago
The AI effect is a real thing, but this is taking it to extreme. I think it's worth distinguishing "artificial general intelligence", AI that is general and can do everything a human can, from "weak" AI. "Weak AI" may or may not be progress towards AGI, but we certainly haven't had AGI for thousands of years.

by Rauchg 10y ago

JoBrad 10y ago

It's generally accepted that any intelligence that isn't from a living being is artificial. Global Civilization isn't living, per se.

ccccc0 10y ago
I'd argue that Global Civilization is nothing but living!
- scrollaway 10y ago
  I read a comment on HN a while back arguing that today's companies are essentially human-powered AIs. It made me think quite a lot -- large companies especially take a lifeform of their own. They tend to mostly care for themselves. Actions are taken "for the company" without any one person being actively aware of why. Higher-ups have some form of backdoor access to the direction the company takes; a symbiotic relationship with what is, in a way, a parasite.
  - Joof 10y ago
    Many larger systems are more than the sum of their parts. Enough that you could consider the grouping it's own entity. Ant hills are the canonical example because individual ants are recognizable as 'animals', but the function of an anthill clearly relies on a complex interaction between more simple ants. Just as we are made of tiny organisms, bigger systems could be considered to be made of us.
    - kirrent 10y ago
      Hofstadter wrote a nice piece on how an ant colony could be thought to be an entity in itself. My favourite quote pasted from an online source: Anteater: "I reject holism. I challenge you to tell me, for instance, how a holistic description of an ant colony sheds any more light on it than is shed by a description of the ants inside it, and their roles, and their, interrelationships. Any holistic explanation of an ant colony will inevitably fall far short of explaining where the consciousness experienced by an ant colony arises from."
      - mdpopescu 10y ago
        Unfortunately, this argument proves too much. Replace "and colony" with "human" and "ant" with "cell in a human body" - can you explain where the consciousness experienced by a human cell colony arises from? (To avoid debating materialism vs idealism use another creature, say "chimp", instead of "human" - assuming that you agree that chimps have a consciousness.) I am not fond of the holistic / emergent idea but I don't think "we can't figure out the exact place where the sum becomes larger than its parts" is a good argument against it.
        jameshart 10y ago
        Hofstadter's anteater is a character in a dialog. You shouldn't assume it presents the author's conclusions directly. Indeed the point of the anteater is that with respect to ants, it's hardly an impartial source.
        Joof 10y ago
getgoingnow 10y ago
Could you offer an abstract definition of "life" and "intelligence" (or maybe even 'thinking' or 'consciousness') ? For example, if you're trying to figure out whether something is 'moving', you would define the term in such a way that it could apply to planets or animals or other things/systems. If you define 'motion' = 'humans putting one leg in front of another', then of course non-human animals or anything else couldn't move. But, that definition is too restrictive. If you're trying to say that animals can't move, then provide a more abstract definition of 'motion' (e.g. 'change in location') and then you will see animals and many other things start moving. Here is a video with a good explanation of how a lack of an abstract definition results in confusion: https://youtu.be/_Wvv-bt9SzI?t=11s
- JoBrad 10y ago
  No, I couldn't. It's terribly difficult to define, and the more you try, the harder it becomes. I think it's a bit easier if you try to generally define it in terms of what we think it isn't: the average layperson would consider any intelligence created by humans to be artificial, such as "artificial cells" or other "AI" like Watson. That's what I meant by "generally accepted" but I realize that my comment reflected very little of the thoughts I had when I made it. Using that definition, Global Civilization, regardless of how complex it has become, is nearly entirely created by humans. Ignoring the "human" part of Oxford's definition for civilization[1], you could say that certain groups of animals do have a form of civilization: some dolphins and killer whales, for example, teach their children very specialized hunting and recreational methods that others within their species do not know. But no other animal engages in anything at the scale of Global Civilization. In that sense, Global Civilization is an artificial construct (intelligence, if you like). I'm not arguing that it isn't intelligence. It's almost like a virus, really, in that it can't do anything by itself (it requires humans), but it certainly has life-like characteristics when powered by a "host." [1] http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/civilization http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_eng...

roymurdock 10y ago

A lot of the arguments/heated debates on HN stem from a failure to define key terms. Less so in threads on compsci-related topics, but almost always on threads with econ-related topics. Especially universal basic income. Once you identify this common issue it becomes easy to avoid these frustrating (and frustrated) conversations altogether. Eno has taken a pretty liberal view of "AI" but he makes a good point about specialization. I would define the concept he's getting at as "collective social memory," but I enjoyed his musings nonetheless.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
xrange 10y ago
>A lot of the arguments/heated debates on HN stem from a failure to define key terms. ... Especially universal basic income. Can you recommend some definitions that are a good starting place for basic income discussions that we could helpfully point to when discussing that issue?
- vec 10y ago
  There are actually two slightly different ideas that are called UBI. The libertarian variant is a relatively small guaranteed income (usually roughly the current minimum wage), is usually paid for with a VAT or sales tax, and replaces most or all of the current welfare programs. The main objectives are to provide a safety net for the poorest citizens in a fairer and less bureaucratic manner and to somewhat equalize the bargaining power between low-wage workers and their employers, usually as an alternative to unionization. The socialist variant is significantly larger (living wage), is usually paid for with graduated income or capital gains taxes, and supplements rather than replaces the existing welfare programs. Its main goals are to provide a direct mechanism for income redistribution and to facilitate non-profitable professions (artist, full-time volunteer, professional student, stay at home caretaker, etc.) for those that want or need them. There's obviously a lot of overlap between the two, and most proponents support both sets of objectives to some degree. That said, most of the contentious arguments seem to derive from critics either not understanding the difference between the two proposals or strawmanning their interlocutors into one extreme or the other.

Houshalter 10y ago

The AI effect is a real thing, but this is taking it to extreme. I think it's worth distinguishing "artificial general intelligence", AI that is general and can do everything a human can, from "weak" AI. "Weak AI" may or may not be progress towards AGI, but we certainly haven't had AGI for thousands of years.