5 ms·

Generally, countries with good human rights record (Western democracies) would be constantly out-voted by authoritarian countries with large populations (China

Generally, countries with good human rights record (Western democracies) would be constantly out-voted by authoritarian countries with large populations (China and Russia, and with some less authoritarianism but still poor human rights record, India). I also find sad that people feel they need to speak of South Africa as a democracy. Mandela is gone and the leadership is what it is.

dmoy 10y ago
Agree on China pop. Russia has less than half the pop of US, and it's declining.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Yes, but still about as large as France and Germany combined. Also other nations with authoritarian and anti-freedom stances have large populations (Pakistan >200M, Nigeria >180M, Iran 80 M, Bangladesh >170M, etc). If voting power is based on population, China and India alone could outvote Western democracies.
drivingmenuts 10y ago
> good human rights record (Western democracies) slightly less-awful human rights records Made it more accurately descriptive.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  Actually, best human rights record of those existing. Nobody's perfect, but let's not try to confuse things.
paradite 10y ago
> Generally, countries with good human rights record (Western democracies) would be constantly out-voted by authoritarian countries with large populations (China and Russia, and with some less authoritarianism but still poor human rights record, India). Did you notice the irony in your comment? You praise the "good record" of Western democracies, but do not want a "democracy" within UN, because in that way, the idea of democracy would work against the "Western democracies". That seems to be some kind of "selective democracy", i.e. only apply democracy when it works to your advantage. If you really support democracy, why not embrace it in the UN and let the decision be based on votes?
- semi-extrinsic 10y ago
  It's not a democracy to have proportional representation with big countries that are not, internally, free democracies.
- ptaipale 10y ago
  What you mention as irony is of course nothing new; it's similar to what is described e.g. by Popper as paradox of democracy: the possibility that a majority decides for a tyrant to rule. However, that there's a paradox is no reason to not acknowledge that Western democracies have the best human rights situation and personal freedom in the world, and giving control of the Internet to authoritarian, populous regimes would be bad for us all.
  - throw2016 10y ago
    This is regurgitating past propaganda and myths perpetuated over the last few decades that cannot be taken for granted anymore and do not stand up to scrutiny. The US had caused more wars and killed more people in the last 50 years than other countries combined, for financial gain and continues to do so. And no one has been held to account for these serious crimes against humanity. There is a serious situation with the way black people are treated by the law enforcement, their continued marginalization, demonization, and social mobility. There are more issues around native americans. There is an entire totalitarian type surveillance state now in operation, with secret courts, secret lists, secret processes and those in power not only routinely getting away with crimes against humanity but also their own people. Whistle blowers and journalists like Drake, Snowden, Greenwald, Poitras and others who seek to expose the burgeoning surveillance state far from raising alarm are being harassed and persecuted. These cannot be held up as examples of individuals or states that care about human rights and freedom and I suspect the reality of losing the historical and carefully nurtured 'moral high ground' that has been used to principally bully 'inconvenient' interests and nations has not sunk in among the population. Continuing to claim the high ground clings to nostalgia and myths that have little to do with reality. The abuse of human rights to demonize other nations for political and strategic interests with little actual concern for people at large has gone on for too long. And achieved little in reality than fuelling a gratutious sense of superiority in the west and complacency in turn and diasters like in Iraq and other unfortunate targets. A genuine interest in human rights will need a untainted less self interested approach. Freedom is not a competition.

dmoy 10y ago

Agree on China pop. Russia has less than half the pop of US, and it's declining.

ptaipale 10y ago
Yes, but still about as large as France and Germany combined. Also other nations with authoritarian and anti-freedom stances have large populations (Pakistan >200M, Nigeria >180M, Iran 80 M, Bangladesh >170M, etc). If voting power is based on population, China and India alone could outvote Western democracies.

drivingmenuts 10y ago

> good human rights record (Western democracies) slightly less-awful human rights records Made it more accurately descriptive.

ptaipale 10y ago
Actually, best human rights record of those existing. Nobody's perfect, but let's not try to confuse things.

paradite 10y ago

> Generally, countries with good human rights record (Western democracies) would be constantly out-voted by authoritarian countries with large populations (China and Russia, and with some less authoritarianism but still poor human rights record, India). Did you notice the irony in your comment? You praise the "good record" of Western democracies, but do not want a "democracy" within UN, because in that way, the idea of democracy would work against the "Western democracies". That seems to be some kind of "selective democracy", i.e. only apply democracy when it works to your advantage. If you really support democracy, why not embrace it in the UN and let the decision be based on votes?

semi-extrinsic 10y ago
It's not a democracy to have proportional representation with big countries that are not, internally, free democracies.
ptaipale 10y ago
What you mention as irony is of course nothing new; it's similar to what is described e.g. by Popper as paradox of democracy: the possibility that a majority decides for a tyrant to rule. However, that there's a paradox is no reason to not acknowledge that Western democracies have the best human rights situation and personal freedom in the world, and giving control of the Internet to authoritarian, populous regimes would be bad for us all.
- throw2016 10y ago
  This is regurgitating past propaganda and myths perpetuated over the last few decades that cannot be taken for granted anymore and do not stand up to scrutiny. The US had caused more wars and killed more people in the last 50 years than other countries combined, for financial gain and continues to do so. And no one has been held to account for these serious crimes against humanity. There is a serious situation with the way black people are treated by the law enforcement, their continued marginalization, demonization, and social mobility. There are more issues around native americans. There is an entire totalitarian type surveillance state now in operation, with secret courts, secret lists, secret processes and those in power not only routinely getting away with crimes against humanity but also their own people. Whistle blowers and journalists like Drake, Snowden, Greenwald, Poitras and others who seek to expose the burgeoning surveillance state far from raising alarm are being harassed and persecuted. These cannot be held up as examples of individuals or states that care about human rights and freedom and I suspect the reality of losing the historical and carefully nurtured 'moral high ground' that has been used to principally bully 'inconvenient' interests and nations has not sunk in among the population. Continuing to claim the high ground clings to nostalgia and myths that have little to do with reality. The abuse of human rights to demonize other nations for political and strategic interests with little actual concern for people at large has gone on for too long. And achieved little in reality than fuelling a gratutious sense of superiority in the west and complacency in turn and diasters like in Iraq and other unfortunate targets. A genuine interest in human rights will need a untainted less self interested approach. Freedom is not a competition.