6 ms·

I spent 6 months in NZ back in 2000 and the thought of moving there has always been present in my mind. Now that the UK has voted to leave the EU, that pretty

I spent 6 months in NZ back in 2000 and the thought of moving there has always been present in my mind. Now that the UK has voted to leave the EU, that pretty much makes my mind up for me - I'll be leaving the UK, and NZ is a serious option. Are there any kiwis in here who can offer some advice for devs considering moving there? Locations to consider? What to expect in terms of wages, cost of living? What is the dev labour market like (e.g. full time gigs or contracts)? In my case, I'm a web dev with Advertising/Marketing, Fashion and financial services experience - I've been developing web apps recently in React. I also dabble in Swift for fun.

adrianmacneil 10y ago
If you want full time web dev work, Auckland and Wellington are really your main options. Cost of living in NZ is high (relative to salaries), but for most people the pace and quality of life make up for it. Given that NZ timezone is only 3-5 hrs difference from the west coast of the US, I personally would look for remote work for a US company while living in NZ (salaries and the exchange rate would be strongly in your favor). However, if you need a visa sponsorship this wouldn't be feasible.
- bonzini 10y ago
  While it's only 3-5 hours difference, you'll effectively be working Sunday-Thursday. It's pretty weird.
  - spacehunt 10y ago
    Wouldn't it be more like Tuesday-Saturday?
    - adrianmacneil 10y ago
      Yes
    - repsilat 10y ago
      It depends what you mean. If you work NZ's Mon-Fri, that'll be Sun-Thu in the US. If you work the US's Mon-Fri, that'll be Tue-Sat in NZ.
Bromskloss 10y ago
Maybe you already knew this, but New Zealand isn't in the EU either.
- gravypod 10y ago
  I was confused by this as well.
- jtmcmc 10y ago
  I think the point is that they see this as a poor decision on the UK's part, enough so that they wish to emigrate.
- tomelders 10y ago
  Sorry, I meant (Old) Zealand. Not really. I'm genuinely concerned about the rise of the right in Europe as a whole and I see the UK referendum result as a great big red flag.
contingencies 10y ago
Kiwi by one of three citizenships here (+AU/DE). AFAIK NZ has the worst rating on the housing affordability index in the western world. We went over and had a look at real estate a couple of years back, but were happy to stay here in China. I would personally consider it only if you want to work remotely, own your own business already, are looking for a good educational environment for children, or love weird great-in-Kiwiland stuff like wild pig shooting, buried BBQs, boats, gardening, learning to fly or building houses in remote, windswept natural locations or something.
- disordinary 10y ago
  That is a huge generalisation, and in fact this article is about affordable housing which therefore contradicts your point. Auckland is not affordable, but Wellington has higher wages and relatively affordable housing. It's still probably high by international standards (but not by the companies that we get directly compared to, namely Australia, Canada, and the UK).
  - contingencies 10y ago
    There are certainly cheaper areas, but what they gain in affordability they tend to lack in jobs, internationalism, vibrancy, services or climate.
- Mandatum 10y ago
  > love weird great-in-Kiwiland stuff like wild pig shooting, buried BBQs, boats, gardening, learning to fly or building houses in remote, windswept natural locations or something. Your idea of "popular" Kiwi past-times is kind of hilarious. I'd say a significant portion of the population has never been any kind of hunting or had a hangi in the past decade. I'd say we're very similar to Vancouver. Nature, sports, bars, mainstream media.
  - contingencies 10y ago
    I never said popular.
te_chris 10y ago
There's certainly work in NZ, but you'll have to live in Auckland, Wellington, Christhurch or Dunedin. Auckland is too expensive to really be worth it, even on high dev salaries.
dzhiurgis 10y ago
Wellington is very windy and thus cold, but it has nice bar culture, is small and very lovely overall. Auckland is much larger and warmer. Number of beaches around so the culture is more around surfing. Also quite a few nice hiking areas ~1hr drive away. I only been in Melbourne and SF for a few days, but Auckland definitely beats them in quality of life. Xero is always seem to be hiring something. There is also a strong albeit small group of functional programmers (find via meetup.com).
- disordinary 10y ago
  That isn't particularly flattering to Wellington. Wellington isn't as windy as our reputation states. There is generally a breeze and one or two big wind events every year. But like much of North America and Europe getting snow, and much of Asia getting the monsoon, Wellington is built to handle it. Buildings are designed to provide wind breaks and even get tested in wind tunnels to make sure that they don't act as a funnel. Generally the weather is pleasant, in Summer it doesn't get above 25 too often, and in winter it's seldom below 10 in the days and 6 at night. We get a frost only a couple of times a year. Wellington has a large inner city mountain bike park, one of the largest inland ecological islands within the city boundaries, and a much more convenient access to nature and the outdoors than probably any other city in the world.
glippiglop 10y ago
2000 was 16 years ago, so it's important to understand that NZ is no longer the same country that you knew. I left in 2005 for the UK and can't imagine returning to NZ to live (last time I visited was 2010). Here's just a few reasons: * I've been spoiled by UK broadband speeds and NZ just doesn't compare. * Food is more expensive, and not of the quality that I'm now used to (fresh seafood would be the exception). * Higher tax relative to what I pay in the UK as a contractor. * Real estate prices are now worse than in the UK * It's an isolated country, you can't just hop on a cheap plane and find yourself in a completely different country & culture an hour or two later. * Purchasing power is greatly limited. In the UK I can buy virtually any obscure item that I want online and get a good price, including P+P. Not so in NZ. * There's very little variety in the job market for software developers, few 'cool' or cutting edge companies and no startup scene worth speaking of. * Finally, cultural experiences are extremely limited. I know I'd miss all the museums, art exhibitions, theatre, concerts, comedians, ballet, opera and so forth. One of the biggest reasons that I left was because of boredom and the UK/EU certainly alleviated that. Source: 27 years of living in NZ.
- disordinary 10y ago
  You realise that the government has been laying fibre to the door for 90% of the population. Or to put off another way 90% of the population will have direct fibre connection by 2018, and most in cities have it already. And while it can't compare to Europe access to countries like Australia, the Pacific islands, and south Asia is quick and convenient. The startup scene in Wellington has exploded, the government funds incubators and lots of companies are fueling each other. Check out the likes of atomic or 8i
- mattmanser 10y ago
  They've changed contractor tax in the UK, this year you'll be paying 10% more than you were (less £500, you're only allowed £5k dividend tax free now).
robocat 10y ago
House prices in NZ are insane compared with salaries. but if you have your own home in UK, you will get a better property over here for the same money. I would recommend Wellington: * most importantly far easier to find friends (whether you have a family, or don't). * plenty of jobs (startup jobs or government jobs or corporate jobs) * great culture * far less commuting (Auckland stinks)
Mandatum 10y ago
Wellington has a good dev and startup culture (that is, for New Zealand). Housing prices are a lot lower too, expect a massive wage cut though unless you're doing remote work for SF-type companies.
- disordinary 10y ago
  Wages are comparable to most western countries, just not SF. Also when you work remotely the remote companies often pay local wages and not SF ones.
Mandatum 10y ago
Wellington has a good dev and startup culture (that is, for New Zealand). Housing prices are a lot lower too, expect a massive wage cut though unless you're doing remote work for SF-type companies.

adrianmacneil 10y ago

If you want full time web dev work, Auckland and Wellington are really your main options. Cost of living in NZ is high (relative to salaries), but for most people the pace and quality of life make up for it. Given that NZ timezone is only 3-5 hrs difference from the west coast of the US, I personally would look for remote work for a US company while living in NZ (salaries and the exchange rate would be strongly in your favor). However, if you need a visa sponsorship this wouldn't be feasible.

bonzini 10y ago
While it's only 3-5 hours difference, you'll effectively be working Sunday-Thursday. It's pretty weird.
- spacehunt 10y ago
  Wouldn't it be more like Tuesday-Saturday?
  - adrianmacneil 10y ago
    Yes
  - repsilat 10y ago
    It depends what you mean. If you work NZ's Mon-Fri, that'll be Sun-Thu in the US. If you work the US's Mon-Fri, that'll be Tue-Sat in NZ.

Bromskloss 10y ago

Maybe you already knew this, but New Zealand isn't in the EU either.

gravypod 10y ago
I was confused by this as well.
jtmcmc 10y ago
I think the point is that they see this as a poor decision on the UK's part, enough so that they wish to emigrate.
tomelders 10y ago
Sorry, I meant (Old) Zealand. Not really. I'm genuinely concerned about the rise of the right in Europe as a whole and I see the UK referendum result as a great big red flag.

contingencies 10y ago

Kiwi by one of three citizenships here (+AU/DE). AFAIK NZ has the worst rating on the housing affordability index in the western world. We went over and had a look at real estate a couple of years back, but were happy to stay here in China. I would personally consider it only if you want to work remotely, own your own business already, are looking for a good educational environment for children, or love weird great-in-Kiwiland stuff like wild pig shooting, buried BBQs, boats, gardening, learning to fly or building houses in remote, windswept natural locations or something.

disordinary 10y ago
That is a huge generalisation, and in fact this article is about affordable housing which therefore contradicts your point. Auckland is not affordable, but Wellington has higher wages and relatively affordable housing. It's still probably high by international standards (but not by the companies that we get directly compared to, namely Australia, Canada, and the UK).
- contingencies 10y ago
  There are certainly cheaper areas, but what they gain in affordability they tend to lack in jobs, internationalism, vibrancy, services or climate.
Mandatum 10y ago
> love weird great-in-Kiwiland stuff like wild pig shooting, buried BBQs, boats, gardening, learning to fly or building houses in remote, windswept natural locations or something. Your idea of "popular" Kiwi past-times is kind of hilarious. I'd say a significant portion of the population has never been any kind of hunting or had a hangi in the past decade. I'd say we're very similar to Vancouver. Nature, sports, bars, mainstream media.
- contingencies 10y ago
  I never said popular.

te_chris 10y ago

There's certainly work in NZ, but you'll have to live in Auckland, Wellington, Christhurch or Dunedin. Auckland is too expensive to really be worth it, even on high dev salaries.

dzhiurgis 10y ago

Wellington is very windy and thus cold, but it has nice bar culture, is small and very lovely overall. Auckland is much larger and warmer. Number of beaches around so the culture is more around surfing. Also quite a few nice hiking areas ~1hr drive away. I only been in Melbourne and SF for a few days, but Auckland definitely beats them in quality of life. Xero is always seem to be hiring something. There is also a strong albeit small group of functional programmers (find via meetup.com).

disordinary 10y ago
That isn't particularly flattering to Wellington. Wellington isn't as windy as our reputation states. There is generally a breeze and one or two big wind events every year. But like much of North America and Europe getting snow, and much of Asia getting the monsoon, Wellington is built to handle it. Buildings are designed to provide wind breaks and even get tested in wind tunnels to make sure that they don't act as a funnel. Generally the weather is pleasant, in Summer it doesn't get above 25 too often, and in winter it's seldom below 10 in the days and 6 at night. We get a frost only a couple of times a year. Wellington has a large inner city mountain bike park, one of the largest inland ecological islands within the city boundaries, and a much more convenient access to nature and the outdoors than probably any other city in the world.

glippiglop 10y ago

2000 was 16 years ago, so it's important to understand that NZ is no longer the same country that you knew. I left in 2005 for the UK and can't imagine returning to NZ to live (last time I visited was 2010). Here's just a few reasons: * I've been spoiled by UK broadband speeds and NZ just doesn't compare. * Food is more expensive, and not of the quality that I'm now used to (fresh seafood would be the exception). * Higher tax relative to what I pay in the UK as a contractor. * Real estate prices are now worse than in the UK * It's an isolated country, you can't just hop on a cheap plane and find yourself in a completely different country & culture an hour or two later. * Purchasing power is greatly limited. In the UK I can buy virtually any obscure item that I want online and get a good price, including P+P. Not so in NZ. * There's very little variety in the job market for software developers, few 'cool' or cutting edge companies and no startup scene worth speaking of. * Finally, cultural experiences are extremely limited. I know I'd miss all the museums, art exhibitions, theatre, concerts, comedians, ballet, opera and so forth. One of the biggest reasons that I left was because of boredom and the UK/EU certainly alleviated that. Source: 27 years of living in NZ.

disordinary 10y ago
You realise that the government has been laying fibre to the door for 90% of the population. Or to put off another way 90% of the population will have direct fibre connection by 2018, and most in cities have it already. And while it can't compare to Europe access to countries like Australia, the Pacific islands, and south Asia is quick and convenient. The startup scene in Wellington has exploded, the government funds incubators and lots of companies are fueling each other. Check out the likes of atomic or 8i
mattmanser 10y ago
They've changed contractor tax in the UK, this year you'll be paying 10% more than you were (less £500, you're only allowed £5k dividend tax free now).

robocat 10y ago

House prices in NZ are insane compared with salaries. but if you have your own home in UK, you will get a better property over here for the same money. I would recommend Wellington: * most importantly far easier to find friends (whether you have a family, or don't). * plenty of jobs (startup jobs or government jobs or corporate jobs) * great culture * far less commuting (Auckland stinks)

Mandatum 10y ago

Wellington has a good dev and startup culture (that is, for New Zealand). Housing prices are a lot lower too, expect a massive wage cut though unless you're doing remote work for SF-type companies.

disordinary 10y ago
Wages are comparable to most western countries, just not SF. Also when you work remotely the remote companies often pay local wages and not SF ones.

Mandatum 10y ago

Wellington has a good dev and startup culture (that is, for New Zealand). Housing prices are a lot lower too, expect a massive wage cut though unless you're doing remote work for SF-type companies.