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Probably because Karl was willing to do it without a co-founder status. I think the same way you do - that I'd never join a startup unless it were my own. I al

Probably because Karl was willing to do it without a co-founder status. I think the same way you do - that I'd never join a startup unless it were my own. I also used to make the same mistake - I thought that everyone else thinks the same way as me. In practice, the opposite is the case. Most people who want to join startups aren't willing to bear the load of fundraising, staying for months on a brink of death, doing recruiting, or management, or secretarial work, or a million other things a startup founder does. Being an excellent engineer or an excellent manager doesn't automatically make one an excellent founder. Bill and Rich are world class at what they do - founding, growing, and running a company (and everything that it entails). I don't know Karl well, but he is probably world class at what he does - engineering great web applications. If Karl is willing to keep doing engineering for a certain compensation, there is no sensible reason for Bill and Rich to make him a co-founder (and conversely, if Karl doesn't want to deal with all the things founders deal with, there is no sensible reason for him to seek a co-founder status).

vaksel 17y ago
basically what I'm saying is that as an employee startups are a bad proposition. You get to work long hours, get paid less money, get less benefits, and unless the company hits a Google size homerun the most you can hope for is recovering the extra income you gave up by not joining Google.
- coffeemug 17y ago
  Purely from the financial perspective, I completely agree with you. Looking at the statistics, starting a company is a bad enough idea. Joining one is even worse. I once made this argument in front of a start up employee, but he explained that he approaches it from a different perspective. He said he's young, so the extra $30k he'll get at Facebook or at Google doesn't make a substantial difference to him - he still lives comfortably; he enjoys the work that he does and the environment immensely; he's learning a ton of things he wouldn't learn in a bigger company (of course he's not learning some things he would learn in a bigger company, but he already did work at one before). The fact that he might get rich in the unlikely event of a home-run is just frosting on the cake. If you think of it from this perspective, joining a startup as an employee makes sense.
  - jackowayed 17y ago
    That's basically how I look at it. It seems like a great way to get incredible experience when you're young. Plus, I'm still in a position (being a high school student) where big companies wouldn't even consider hiring me, so it's startups or nothing for now. Even once I'm in college and thus could get big-company internships, I'll probably work for startups instead. The work will be more interesting, rewarding, and fun, and I'll almost certainly learn more from it. But I do agree that once I'm out of college, I probably wouldn't work for a startup that I didn't start unless it was at the point where it could pay me pretty close to market rate.
    - coffeemug 17y ago
      As a piece of advice, while you don't have a choice, obviously work where you can. Once choice presents itself, pick a job where you're the dumbest kid in the group. While all startups talk about how they have the smartest people, most actually don't. Really good people are in a very limited supply. In my experience they're uniformly distributed across startups and big companies, so when you pick a job, pick based on the quality of people you'll be directly working with, not based on the size of the company. Do not assume that smart people are likely to be in a startup (even if it's funded by the best investors) - it's not necessarily true.
    - codexon 17y ago
      Plus, I'm still in a position (being a high school student) where big companies wouldn't even consider hiring me, so it's startups or nothing for now. I don't think a startup is likely to give you an internship (perhaps even less) than one of the big companies.
      - coffeemug 17y ago
        We just hired a high school senior for the summer. He was also one of the best candidates we've seen so far.
      - jackowayed 17y ago
        Sure they are. I know because I worked for one last year. If I tried to apply to a big company for a programming internship, my resume would never even make it to someone who actually has the authority to hire me. HR would trash it. Startups don't work like that. I've only ever applied to startups small enough that my email was read directly by the founders. So at least I had a chance. I actually had several offers last summer, though I got all of them because I know a guy who knows lots of startup types. Now, though, I just cold-emailed a very early-stage startup and they've expressed some interest. Between "I have experience working for a startup" and "I got into Stanford", potential employers who see my resume at least know I'm not totally worthless. But most HR departments would still take me out of the running immediately.

vaksel 17y ago

basically what I'm saying is that as an employee startups are a bad proposition. You get to work long hours, get paid less money, get less benefits, and unless the company hits a Google size homerun the most you can hope for is recovering the extra income you gave up by not joining Google.

coffeemug 17y ago
Purely from the financial perspective, I completely agree with you. Looking at the statistics, starting a company is a bad enough idea. Joining one is even worse. I once made this argument in front of a start up employee, but he explained that he approaches it from a different perspective. He said he's young, so the extra $30k he'll get at Facebook or at Google doesn't make a substantial difference to him - he still lives comfortably; he enjoys the work that he does and the environment immensely; he's learning a ton of things he wouldn't learn in a bigger company (of course he's not learning some things he would learn in a bigger company, but he already did work at one before). The fact that he might get rich in the unlikely event of a home-run is just frosting on the cake. If you think of it from this perspective, joining a startup as an employee makes sense.
- jackowayed 17y ago
  That's basically how I look at it. It seems like a great way to get incredible experience when you're young. Plus, I'm still in a position (being a high school student) where big companies wouldn't even consider hiring me, so it's startups or nothing for now. Even once I'm in college and thus could get big-company internships, I'll probably work for startups instead. The work will be more interesting, rewarding, and fun, and I'll almost certainly learn more from it. But I do agree that once I'm out of college, I probably wouldn't work for a startup that I didn't start unless it was at the point where it could pay me pretty close to market rate.
  - coffeemug 17y ago
    As a piece of advice, while you don't have a choice, obviously work where you can. Once choice presents itself, pick a job where you're the dumbest kid in the group. While all startups talk about how they have the smartest people, most actually don't. Really good people are in a very limited supply. In my experience they're uniformly distributed across startups and big companies, so when you pick a job, pick based on the quality of people you'll be directly working with, not based on the size of the company. Do not assume that smart people are likely to be in a startup (even if it's funded by the best investors) - it's not necessarily true.
  - codexon 17y ago
    Plus, I'm still in a position (being a high school student) where big companies wouldn't even consider hiring me, so it's startups or nothing for now. I don't think a startup is likely to give you an internship (perhaps even less) than one of the big companies.
    - coffeemug 17y ago
      We just hired a high school senior for the summer. He was also one of the best candidates we've seen so far.
    - jackowayed 17y ago
      Sure they are. I know because I worked for one last year. If I tried to apply to a big company for a programming internship, my resume would never even make it to someone who actually has the authority to hire me. HR would trash it. Startups don't work like that. I've only ever applied to startups small enough that my email was read directly by the founders. So at least I had a chance. I actually had several offers last summer, though I got all of them because I know a guy who knows lots of startup types. Now, though, I just cold-emailed a very early-stage startup and they've expressed some interest. Between "I have experience working for a startup" and "I got into Stanford", potential employers who see my resume at least know I'm not totally worthless. But most HR departments would still take me out of the running immediately.