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I think the "crazy" aspect coming into play is an iteration of the world-shattering view that occurs when a child realizes his or her parents are just people, n

by cjslep 10y ago

I think the "crazy" aspect coming into play is an iteration of the world-shattering view that occurs when a child realizes his or her parents are just people, not infallible perfect protectors. This fundamentally changes the view of the world for a person because a fundamental truth is no longer true. This change can be viewed as "crazy" and reality becomes more chaotic in the new world view. I believe the same thing is happening right now in modern China. Simply substitute constituents and the oligarchy instead for the child and parent. When the citizens realize the infallible groupthink propaganda touted by the ruling class is in fact being touted by people inflicted with the human condition, they also experience a change in world view. Again, this change is "crazy" and more chaotic: A fundamental truth in their world view is no longer true. Remember, China favored building a society on Confucianism where society had a set order. There is no room for the chaos in a Confucian society. However, the less-promoted Dao De Jing was written in an attempt to perfectly capture the chaos, contradictions, and hypocrisies of reality. And in a way, applying its teachings to itself indicates it both succeeds and fails in doing so. The "ultra-unrealism" that the author keeps espousing seems to me a reaction for coming to grips to the mind-expanding change that comes when realizing a truth previously fundamental is no longer true. I am not trying to dismiss their feelings but am appreciating the personal growth. I hope others do too.

coldtea 10y ago
>I believe the same thing is happening right now in modern China. Simply substitute constituents and the oligarchy instead for the child and parent. Only ordinary Chinese citizens are not childlike and easily led at all (that's an early colonial misunderstanding) -- they are just as smart and street-wise as we are, and understand all the gritty details -- they always did.
- cjslep 10y ago
  Thanks for pointing this out. It was not my intention to portray Chinese citizens as childlike. I simply meant to use the loss of childhood innocence as an example of how world views can be changed at a fundamental level. That kind of change can occur at any stage of life for anyone; childhood innocence tends to be the most relatable as an example across cultures. Another example was given to me by a coworker: after Fukushima, she realized that her employer ultimately did not care about her safety in a regional-paralyzing event. That shattered her world view about how she would be viewed as an object, not a person, by employers. This was despite all the women-in-tech, no-glass-ceiling, etc rhetoric. She vowed to take a new job where she would consider only employers that had demonstrated an active commitment to their employee's safety. It changed her world view about PR pieces put out by companies, especially with regards to diversity. Edit: To conclude, I personally believe there is an opportunity for personal growth about learning a healthy distrust in what government or politically-active people have to say in any country, including the USA, for everyone. Including myself. I truly did not mean to single out the Chinese in a degrading manner.
  - natrius 10y ago
    Look at the great discussion you started! Thanks for taking the risk of being imprecise to share your thoughts.
- venomsnake 10y ago
  I firsthand observed the fall of communist regime in my country (1989). A lot of ordinary citizens (some of them with great education and so on) were very childlike when interacting with the non communist world and the new rules. There was naivete in the population that was exploited and cashed to the fullest. Ponzi schemes, predatory advertising, cults, quacks ... When the rules of the game change drastically - we are all children until we figure out the new ones.
escape_goat 10y ago
I appreciate that you are reasoning well from the basis of your understanding of China, and you have arrived at a good explanatory story that works well within a sort of Jungian "collective unconscious" theory of society and culture. However, I think that it is too broad in its generalizations to be viable, and it does not pay enough attention to the actual historical context of circumstances in China.
- cjslep 10y ago
  Thanks, and I admit my understanding is pretty general having spent very little time with people currently living in modern China. Could you or others correct me? I would appreciate pointers, insights, or refinements.
  - cglee 10y ago
    Read the comment from SolaceQuantum: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12026274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12026274
kev6168 10y ago
I agree the craziness of China's society today is because people are lost in a unfamiliar era. The old life style where family and village are at the absolute center is gone, but the new structure with comprehensive and strictly enforced law and modern civic code are not in place. People are dumbfounded. Imagine if Europeans were teleported from 600 AD to 1800 AD, bypassing all those Renaissance/Enlightenment years. In China's history the oligarchy/government/emperors were always been regarded as the oppressor, the enemy, the bad guy, by ordinary Chinese. They got power through violence or family line. So people didn't care much, other than paying the painfully exorbitant taxes. For people it's the village leaders/families that actually had intimate ties with them. I think perhaps a better analogy for the world-shattering change facing by today's China might be an isolated tribe being suddenly exposed to modern capitalism/commerce/ideas of freedom/etc., and felt lost, and is searching for ways to go forward, while there are no applicable lessons either from its own history or the hugely different western countries. It's truly remarkable.
SolaceQuantum 10y ago
> When the citizens realize the infallible groupthink propaganda touted by the ruling class is in fact being touted by people inflicted with the human condition, they also experience a change in world view. As someone who has grown up in and is Chinese, I very much disagree with this sentiment, especially in modern day. There has always been a discordant and uncomfortable relationship with authority in Chinese culture- we are polite to put on airs to our authorities but we also secretly hate them in some respects. We understand they are human, like us, but for the sake of society rule airs are put on to keep them. It has always been understood that authority and corruption are tightly bound, perhaps even more understood than in America. The young see all the holes the government has and both desires to being justice and also acutely feel the burdens of society's structure on them, but to upend society has an almost horrific cultural connotation, a cultural catastophe referred to only as "that critical time" or "those difficult times". In this triangulation we have also the need for simple food, water, love, shelter, peace. The modern world and the ancient world are so intertwined in China, that going of the cities is like a form of time travel. The difference between my mother's home village and the city less than 1 hour away by train is the entire industrial revolution. Much of modern China is also influences from "the critical time" on the modern history. China still has not recovered, culturally, emotionally. It might never will, not in any real way. People have been producing this kind of literature since that time. The most accurate thing in the article is when the article notes that China might "always" have been like this. Yes, China has always been like this in its own way. China has had these methods of storytelling for a long, long time. Now the new generation of writers is applying this methods to modern problems and modern society in its complex, cage-like structure that everyone is aware of in their bones. I disagree with the assessment that this is "crazy" or "coming to grips with a fundamental truth is no longer true". It is a rational consequence of applying ancient storytelling methods to a complex triangulation of the new generation's situation, where we are all aware that the government is a corrupt and easily-swayed monster, but social upheaval is horrifically dangerous monster in its own right. It is a problem with no certain solution, so we write.
- xeromal 10y ago
  Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed reading your perspective. Online forums can sometimes oversimplify complex, deeply-rooted problems if the solution appears easy from the outside looking in.
bogomipz 10y ago
Well, Confucianism is as much about choosing the benevolent and harmonious path as it is with relationships and order. You can't really talk about a Chinese society and only bring up Confucianism as it is also a mix of Daoism and Buddhism - all three of which are at odds with each other. I would think Daosim and its ideas of the needs and rights of "self" would be closer linked to official corruption than that of Confucianism.

by cjslep 10y ago

coldtea 10y ago

>I believe the same thing is happening right now in modern China. Simply substitute constituents and the oligarchy instead for the child and parent. Only ordinary Chinese citizens are not childlike and easily led at all (that's an early colonial misunderstanding) -- they are just as smart and street-wise as we are, and understand all the gritty details -- they always did.

cjslep 10y ago
Thanks for pointing this out. It was not my intention to portray Chinese citizens as childlike. I simply meant to use the loss of childhood innocence as an example of how world views can be changed at a fundamental level. That kind of change can occur at any stage of life for anyone; childhood innocence tends to be the most relatable as an example across cultures. Another example was given to me by a coworker: after Fukushima, she realized that her employer ultimately did not care about her safety in a regional-paralyzing event. That shattered her world view about how she would be viewed as an object, not a person, by employers. This was despite all the women-in-tech, no-glass-ceiling, etc rhetoric. She vowed to take a new job where she would consider only employers that had demonstrated an active commitment to their employee's safety. It changed her world view about PR pieces put out by companies, especially with regards to diversity. Edit: To conclude, I personally believe there is an opportunity for personal growth about learning a healthy distrust in what government or politically-active people have to say in any country, including the USA, for everyone. Including myself. I truly did not mean to single out the Chinese in a degrading manner.
- natrius 10y ago
  Look at the great discussion you started! Thanks for taking the risk of being imprecise to share your thoughts.
venomsnake 10y ago
I firsthand observed the fall of communist regime in my country (1989). A lot of ordinary citizens (some of them with great education and so on) were very childlike when interacting with the non communist world and the new rules. There was naivete in the population that was exploited and cashed to the fullest. Ponzi schemes, predatory advertising, cults, quacks ... When the rules of the game change drastically - we are all children until we figure out the new ones.

escape_goat 10y ago

I appreciate that you are reasoning well from the basis of your understanding of China, and you have arrived at a good explanatory story that works well within a sort of Jungian "collective unconscious" theory of society and culture. However, I think that it is too broad in its generalizations to be viable, and it does not pay enough attention to the actual historical context of circumstances in China.

cjslep 10y ago
Thanks, and I admit my understanding is pretty general having spent very little time with people currently living in modern China. Could you or others correct me? I would appreciate pointers, insights, or refinements.
- cglee 10y ago
  Read the comment from SolaceQuantum: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12026274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12026274

kev6168 10y ago

I agree the craziness of China's society today is because people are lost in a unfamiliar era. The old life style where family and village are at the absolute center is gone, but the new structure with comprehensive and strictly enforced law and modern civic code are not in place. People are dumbfounded. Imagine if Europeans were teleported from 600 AD to 1800 AD, bypassing all those Renaissance/Enlightenment years. In China's history the oligarchy/government/emperors were always been regarded as the oppressor, the enemy, the bad guy, by ordinary Chinese. They got power through violence or family line. So people didn't care much, other than paying the painfully exorbitant taxes. For people it's the village leaders/families that actually had intimate ties with them. I think perhaps a better analogy for the world-shattering change facing by today's China might be an isolated tribe being suddenly exposed to modern capitalism/commerce/ideas of freedom/etc., and felt lost, and is searching for ways to go forward, while there are no applicable lessons either from its own history or the hugely different western countries. It's truly remarkable.

SolaceQuantum 10y ago

> When the citizens realize the infallible groupthink propaganda touted by the ruling class is in fact being touted by people inflicted with the human condition, they also experience a change in world view. As someone who has grown up in and is Chinese, I very much disagree with this sentiment, especially in modern day. There has always been a discordant and uncomfortable relationship with authority in Chinese culture- we are polite to put on airs to our authorities but we also secretly hate them in some respects. We understand they are human, like us, but for the sake of society rule airs are put on to keep them. It has always been understood that authority and corruption are tightly bound, perhaps even more understood than in America. The young see all the holes the government has and both desires to being justice and also acutely feel the burdens of society's structure on them, but to upend society has an almost horrific cultural connotation, a cultural catastophe referred to only as "that critical time" or "those difficult times". In this triangulation we have also the need for simple food, water, love, shelter, peace. The modern world and the ancient world are so intertwined in China, that going of the cities is like a form of time travel. The difference between my mother's home village and the city less than 1 hour away by train is the entire industrial revolution. Much of modern China is also influences from "the critical time" on the modern history. China still has not recovered, culturally, emotionally. It might never will, not in any real way. People have been producing this kind of literature since that time. The most accurate thing in the article is when the article notes that China might "always" have been like this. Yes, China has always been like this in its own way. China has had these methods of storytelling for a long, long time. Now the new generation of writers is applying this methods to modern problems and modern society in its complex, cage-like structure that everyone is aware of in their bones. I disagree with the assessment that this is "crazy" or "coming to grips with a fundamental truth is no longer true". It is a rational consequence of applying ancient storytelling methods to a complex triangulation of the new generation's situation, where we are all aware that the government is a corrupt and easily-swayed monster, but social upheaval is horrifically dangerous monster in its own right. It is a problem with no certain solution, so we write.

xeromal 10y ago
Thanks for sharing. I really enjoyed reading your perspective. Online forums can sometimes oversimplify complex, deeply-rooted problems if the solution appears easy from the outside looking in.

bogomipz 10y ago

Well, Confucianism is as much about choosing the benevolent and harmonious path as it is with relationships and order. You can't really talk about a Chinese society and only bring up Confucianism as it is also a mix of Daoism and Buddhism - all three of which are at odds with each other. I would think Daosim and its ideas of the needs and rights of "self" would be closer linked to official corruption than that of Confucianism.