6 ms·

The Price of a Child (2013)

50 points by oli5679 10y ago

jesuslop 10y ago
boy for sale, https://frinkiac.com/caption/S08E13/800415 https://frinkiac.com/caption/S08E13/800415
- Symbiote 10y ago
  A real family, sold in Chicago in 1948: http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/hammond/sold-off-siblings-shown-in-old-photo-tell-their-stories/article_1c095598-89f4-584b-891b-7ef48a1e2082.html http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/hammond/sold-off-sib...
  - throwaway049 10y ago
    Site required me to answer survey questions before revealing the text of the article.
    - voltagex_ 10y ago
      Seems to be a "delightful" service provided by "townnews.com", which appears to be a news site CMS.
Cypher 10y ago
I love seeing reposts on HN reminds me of reddit.
- dang 10y ago
  Snark is deprecated here (though that was marginally good snark) and reposts are fine if the article is good and hasn't had attention in the last year or so: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html. This one must recently have been republished or appeared elsewhere since it was posted three times here in the last few days.
ikeboy 10y ago
Title reminds me of https://mises.org/library/children-and-rights https://mises.org/library/children-and-rights. (Do not endorse).
pavel_lishin 10y ago
I imagine that people were largely indifferent to the loss of a child in "ye olden times" because it was expected, and they hardened themselves to the probability. Childhood mortality was atrocious back in the day.
- erehweb 10y ago
  Maybe not. Listening to the History of England podcast, was pointed to the poem "Pearl" https://interestingliterature.com/2016/02/03/a-short-summary-of-the-medieval-poem-pearl/ https://interestingliterature.com/2016/02/03/a-short-summary... and http://www.billstanton.co.uk/pearl/pearl_new.htm http://www.billstanton.co.uk/pearl/pearl_new.htm which includes a father's grieving for his lost two year old daughter. So some evidence that these losses were keenly felt.
  - i000 10y ago
    Another example are Laments by a great Polish 16th century poet (Kochanowski). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laments_(Kochanowski) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laments_(Kochanowski)
    - nsrango 10y ago
      Also from the American tradition I wish my baby was born. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFpU3zslpHw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFpU3zslpHw
  - jbarham 10y ago
    Another famous example is Wordsworth's "Suprised by joy - impatient as the wind", c. 1800. See e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2008/sep/22/poem.of.the.week.wordsworth https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2008/sep/22/poem... for the poem and exposition.
- ams6110 10y ago
  I would think "indifferent" is a stretch, but would agree it's something that almost everyone experienced themselves or in their immediate circles. Another difference is that generally, "pain and suffering" was not seen as deserving financial compensation. That changed at some point last century also, maybe as it became more rare and thus more shocking to judges and juries.
nimrody 10y ago
Priceless but also very expensive :) I wonder if someone researched the cost of raising a child all the way to adulthood.
- TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
  There's plenty of number floating around various source, one at random claims US$263,000[1] in the US and AU$812,000 in Australia[also 1]. Of course, it depends how much you spend (private school or public, $400 shoes or $40). A single parent on welfare in Australia will spend substantially less than a couple who have a combined income of one million. Also the single parent on welfare gets benefits like discounted healthcare (free primary care) and discounted public transport. 1. http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/costs/cost-of-raising-children-in-australia-is-rather-massive/news-story/cbbe4eab3f4539323931c22a1a1c30bf http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/costs/cost-of-raising-c...
  - gambiting 10y ago
    The price of raising a child in Poland seems to be 170k PLN(42k USD) from 0-19 years of age[0]. Completely free healtcare and education, including higher education, seem to keep the cost low. [0] http://smith.pl/sites/default/files/zalaczniki_201508/dzieci_2015_raport.pdf http://smith.pl/sites/default/files/zalaczniki_201508/dzieci...
    - brc 10y ago
      Don't forget the extra taxes paid to provide the schooling and hospitals! It's a good thing for these to be spread out - otherwise those who don't have kids are free riders on those that do. A healthy educated child not only supplies a lifetime of taxes paid, they also provide the labor to care for the ageing who didn't have children.
      - gambiting 10y ago
        Income tax in Poland is at 19% at the moment - surely it's not a lot more expensive than anywhere else in the world?
esharef 10y ago
I wonder what the process of losing a child was like for mothers in the 18th century. Somehow I have trouble believing there was that little sorrow
- ddebernardy 10y ago
  You can capture their sentiment by reading letters sent to announce the loss of said child. You can even observe how big a change occurred in the 19th century. In the early 19th (and before that), the loss of a child is described almost in passing. There was grievance of course, but child mortality was normal then; almost expected. By the end of the 19th century it had become unusual. And indeed, dramatic.
mysterypie 10y ago
The article doesn't answer the central question of "Why did the value of a child change from worthless to nearly priceless?" If children transformed from economically useful little people to economically useless, then the conclusion should be that they became even more worthless. I'm not seeing a clear explanation of why children are perceived as more valuable nowadays.
- brc 10y ago
  A combination of rarity, utility and sunk costs. The article seems to be wandering down the tangled nest of errors called the labor theory of value, or one of its offshoots. This bedevilled people for a long time who could not explain why a diamond was worth so much when it cost little effort to make and is objectively useless. Modern children are diamonds. They are not that difficult to make, mostly useless but give great utility to the parent. Modern children are also rare, thanks to birth control. Most affluent societies are below replacement rate, while 1800s societies had kids everywhere. The most spoiled and indulged children are the ones who don't have any siblings. So... - kids give their parents pride and joy (like a diamond) - kids are relatively rare compared to the prior period - the upbringing of a child is 20 year project for parents now, so the loss of effort as they get older increases the pain of loss Most of these points are in reverse to the prior period, when you'd have 5 or 6 children in the hope of getting 2 or 3 to adulthood, which was onset much earlier. You had more, invested in them less, and everyone else had more as well.

50 points by oli5679 10y ago

jesuslop 10y ago

boy for sale, https://frinkiac.com/caption/S08E13/800415 https://frinkiac.com/caption/S08E13/800415

Symbiote 10y ago
A real family, sold in Chicago in 1948: http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/hammond/sold-off-siblings-shown-in-old-photo-tell-their-stories/article_1c095598-89f4-584b-891b-7ef48a1e2082.html http://www.nwitimes.com/news/local/lake/hammond/sold-off-sib...
- throwaway049 10y ago
  Site required me to answer survey questions before revealing the text of the article.
  - voltagex_ 10y ago
    Seems to be a "delightful" service provided by "townnews.com", which appears to be a news site CMS.

Cypher 10y ago

I love seeing reposts on HN reminds me of reddit.

dang 10y ago
Snark is deprecated here (though that was marginally good snark) and reposts are fine if the article is good and hasn't had attention in the last year or so: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html. This one must recently have been republished or appeared elsewhere since it was posted three times here in the last few days.

ikeboy 10y ago

Title reminds me of https://mises.org/library/children-and-rights https://mises.org/library/children-and-rights. (Do not endorse).

pavel_lishin 10y ago

I imagine that people were largely indifferent to the loss of a child in "ye olden times" because it was expected, and they hardened themselves to the probability. Childhood mortality was atrocious back in the day.

erehweb 10y ago
Maybe not. Listening to the History of England podcast, was pointed to the poem "Pearl" https://interestingliterature.com/2016/02/03/a-short-summary-of-the-medieval-poem-pearl/ https://interestingliterature.com/2016/02/03/a-short-summary... and http://www.billstanton.co.uk/pearl/pearl_new.htm http://www.billstanton.co.uk/pearl/pearl_new.htm which includes a father's grieving for his lost two year old daughter. So some evidence that these losses were keenly felt.
- i000 10y ago
  Another example are Laments by a great Polish 16th century poet (Kochanowski). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laments_(Kochanowski) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laments_(Kochanowski)
  - nsrango 10y ago
    Also from the American tradition I wish my baby was born. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFpU3zslpHw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sFpU3zslpHw
- jbarham 10y ago
  Another famous example is Wordsworth's "Suprised by joy - impatient as the wind", c. 1800. See e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2008/sep/22/poem.of.the.week.wordsworth https://www.theguardian.com/books/booksblog/2008/sep/22/poem... for the poem and exposition.
ams6110 10y ago
I would think "indifferent" is a stretch, but would agree it's something that almost everyone experienced themselves or in their immediate circles. Another difference is that generally, "pain and suffering" was not seen as deserving financial compensation. That changed at some point last century also, maybe as it became more rare and thus more shocking to judges and juries.

nimrody 10y ago

Priceless but also very expensive :) I wonder if someone researched the cost of raising a child all the way to adulthood.

TheSpiceIsLife 10y ago
There's plenty of number floating around various source, one at random claims US$263,000[1] in the US and AU$812,000 in Australia[also 1]. Of course, it depends how much you spend (private school or public, $400 shoes or $40). A single parent on welfare in Australia will spend substantially less than a couple who have a combined income of one million. Also the single parent on welfare gets benefits like discounted healthcare (free primary care) and discounted public transport. 1. http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/costs/cost-of-raising-children-in-australia-is-rather-massive/news-story/cbbe4eab3f4539323931c22a1a1c30bf http://www.news.com.au/finance/money/costs/cost-of-raising-c...
- gambiting 10y ago
  The price of raising a child in Poland seems to be 170k PLN(42k USD) from 0-19 years of age[0]. Completely free healtcare and education, including higher education, seem to keep the cost low. [0] http://smith.pl/sites/default/files/zalaczniki_201508/dzieci_2015_raport.pdf http://smith.pl/sites/default/files/zalaczniki_201508/dzieci...
  - brc 10y ago
    Don't forget the extra taxes paid to provide the schooling and hospitals! It's a good thing for these to be spread out - otherwise those who don't have kids are free riders on those that do. A healthy educated child not only supplies a lifetime of taxes paid, they also provide the labor to care for the ageing who didn't have children.
    - gambiting 10y ago
      Income tax in Poland is at 19% at the moment - surely it's not a lot more expensive than anywhere else in the world?

esharef 10y ago

I wonder what the process of losing a child was like for mothers in the 18th century. Somehow I have trouble believing there was that little sorrow

ddebernardy 10y ago
You can capture their sentiment by reading letters sent to announce the loss of said child. You can even observe how big a change occurred in the 19th century. In the early 19th (and before that), the loss of a child is described almost in passing. There was grievance of course, but child mortality was normal then; almost expected. By the end of the 19th century it had become unusual. And indeed, dramatic.

mysterypie 10y ago

The article doesn't answer the central question of "Why did the value of a child change from worthless to nearly priceless?" If children transformed from economically useful little people to economically useless, then the conclusion should be that they became even more worthless. I'm not seeing a clear explanation of why children are perceived as more valuable nowadays.

brc 10y ago
A combination of rarity, utility and sunk costs. The article seems to be wandering down the tangled nest of errors called the labor theory of value, or one of its offshoots. This bedevilled people for a long time who could not explain why a diamond was worth so much when it cost little effort to make and is objectively useless. Modern children are diamonds. They are not that difficult to make, mostly useless but give great utility to the parent. Modern children are also rare, thanks to birth control. Most affluent societies are below replacement rate, while 1800s societies had kids everywhere. The most spoiled and indulged children are the ones who don't have any siblings. So... - kids give their parents pride and joy (like a diamond) - kids are relatively rare compared to the prior period - the upbringing of a child is 20 year project for parents now, so the loss of effort as they get older increases the pain of loss Most of these points are in reverse to the prior period, when you'd have 5 or 6 children in the hope of getting 2 or 3 to adulthood, which was onset much earlier. You had more, invested in them less, and everyone else had more as well.