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You can't relax on being calm and civil, even in response to comments that don't deserve it. Think about it this way, because this is probably true: every time

You can't relax on being calm and civil, even in response to comments that don't deserve it. Think about it this way, because this is probably true: every time we fuck up and write a nasty, shrill response to a racist comment, we generate a light-grey negative-rated rebuttal to racism. If we're particularly bad about responding, we'll park that comment next to a racist comment that keeps a neutral score just out of sympathy. Hacker News! Where reacting to racism is worse than actual racism.

tptacek 10y ago
You can call it whatever you want, but if you make uncivil arguments, it's a fact that: (a) your posts are going to get flagged, and people are going to see that they got flagged, and your "anti-racist" comments are going be penalized, often farther than the racist ones, and (b) you're eventually going to get banned from the site You can huff off to Twitter like the rest of the cool kids when that happens, but I'll observe that there's already a sizable contingent of cool kids claiming that HN is a bastion of misogyny and racism, and Lobsters is no closer to taking over the world for their efforts --- would that it were otherwise! I guess I would sum this up as follows: This is a real problem, and it doesn't have to be about you.
- kelukelugames 10y ago
  Call it whatever I want? It's called tone policing and it's a real problem. You are part of it.
  - tptacek 10y ago
    If that's what you want to call moderation and the site guidelines, OK. I know you're not a troll. But you make lazy, weak arguments, and it seems to upset you that they're not winning simply because you're right. You don't have to stay upset and unhappy. There's a better way.
    - kelukelugames 10y ago
      Now you are blatantly ignoring the principle of charity. I like HN because of its tight guidelines and moderation. Tone policing is a systematic problem in our society, one which you shouldn't dismiss as weak and lazy, especially since the culprits are typically privileged males. You will grow more as a person if you take the time to learn from people from different backgrounds. Furthermore, assumptions about me aren't productive but I doubt dang will say anything.
      - jsprogrammer 10y ago
        You may have observed typical culprits as being privileged males, but that doesn't mean it is so in other contexts. I do agree that moderation here is often out-of-line and I have perhaps seen (here and elsewhere) what could be termed "tone policing", which I agree is completely incompatible with the "principle of charity". One problem I just discovered here is that you apparently cannot upmod 'flagged'/'dead' comments. So, an especially violent, and quick group can brigade posts completely out of the community discussion, with basically no hope of return except through an out-of-band appeal.
        tptacek 10y ago
        Also false. Search the site for posts about the "vouch" button.
        jsprogrammer 10y ago
        Also? I have no idea what you are referring to. I had never seen a vouch button before. Does it only appear when you have invoked "showdead"? I'd guess most have never invoked it. -- It appears I am still correct. Vouch will only appear after being censored and can only be reinstated by others invoking an obscure option. I also cannot upmod a dead post (at least, not from /newest).
dang 10y ago
This is the sort of comment that violates the Principle of Charity (which we're about to add to the HN guidelines). You can construct that provocative an interpretation of tptacek's comment if you choose to—you can construct any interpretation of anything—but it doesn't come close to being the strongest plausible reading of what he said, and that's the only one you should be responding to here. http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html If you don't want to comment in that spirit, please don't comment. It diminishes mutual respect.
- kelukelugames 10y ago
  Are tp and you applying the principle of charity? Here are two comments in this very thread that are downvoted. This is not unique to HN, this is a symptom in society that many women and PoCs have written about. I'd be happy to share some links if you are interested. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12013600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12013600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12013616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12013616 ps oriental? I would have chosen a different link. :) In all seriousness, this is the cultural sensitivity and empathy HN lacks. Having been to South Carolina, I'm not surprised by outdated language, but I hope HN mods know better.
  - kelukelugames 10y ago
    Add another example from this thread. This is why tech forums are not inclusive. https://hacker-news.firebaseio.com/v0/item/12016262.json https://hacker-news.firebaseio.com/v0/item/12016262.json
  - kelukelugames 10y ago
    Add another example from this thread. This is why tech forums are not inclusive. https://hacker-news.firebaseio.com/v0/item/12016262.json https://hacker-news.firebaseio.com/v0/item/12016262.json
  - tptacek 10y ago
    You can't seem to see the difference between bad comment and bad argument. In a thread that could be fairly characterized as "Hacker News tearing to bits a racist comment", you found two bad comments on the thread whose authors happen to agree with you --- and, from what it looks like, the whole rest of the site --- and tried to spin that into a narrative. Why would you do that?

tptacek 10y ago

You can call it whatever you want, but if you make uncivil arguments, it's a fact that: (a) your posts are going to get flagged, and people are going to see that they got flagged, and your "anti-racist" comments are going be penalized, often farther than the racist ones, and (b) you're eventually going to get banned from the site You can huff off to Twitter like the rest of the cool kids when that happens, but I'll observe that there's already a sizable contingent of cool kids claiming that HN is a bastion of misogyny and racism, and Lobsters is no closer to taking over the world for their efforts --- would that it were otherwise! I guess I would sum this up as follows: This is a real problem, and it doesn't have to be about you.

kelukelugames 10y ago
Call it whatever I want? It's called tone policing and it's a real problem. You are part of it.
- tptacek 10y ago
  If that's what you want to call moderation and the site guidelines, OK. I know you're not a troll. But you make lazy, weak arguments, and it seems to upset you that they're not winning simply because you're right. You don't have to stay upset and unhappy. There's a better way.
  - kelukelugames 10y ago
    Now you are blatantly ignoring the principle of charity. I like HN because of its tight guidelines and moderation. Tone policing is a systematic problem in our society, one which you shouldn't dismiss as weak and lazy, especially since the culprits are typically privileged males. You will grow more as a person if you take the time to learn from people from different backgrounds. Furthermore, assumptions about me aren't productive but I doubt dang will say anything.
    - jsprogrammer 10y ago
      You may have observed typical culprits as being privileged males, but that doesn't mean it is so in other contexts. I do agree that moderation here is often out-of-line and I have perhaps seen (here and elsewhere) what could be termed "tone policing", which I agree is completely incompatible with the "principle of charity". One problem I just discovered here is that you apparently cannot upmod 'flagged'/'dead' comments. So, an especially violent, and quick group can brigade posts completely out of the community discussion, with basically no hope of return except through an out-of-band appeal.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        Also false. Search the site for posts about the "vouch" button.
        jsprogrammer 10y ago
        Also? I have no idea what you are referring to. I had never seen a vouch button before. Does it only appear when you have invoked "showdead"? I'd guess most have never invoked it. -- It appears I am still correct. Vouch will only appear after being censored and can only be reinstated by others invoking an obscure option. I also cannot upmod a dead post (at least, not from /newest).

dang 10y ago

This is the sort of comment that violates the Principle of Charity (which we're about to add to the HN guidelines). You can construct that provocative an interpretation of tptacek's comment if you choose to—you can construct any interpretation of anything—but it doesn't come close to being the strongest plausible reading of what he said, and that's the only one you should be responding to here. http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html http://philosophy.lander.edu/oriental/charity.html If you don't want to comment in that spirit, please don't comment. It diminishes mutual respect.

kelukelugames 10y ago
Are tp and you applying the principle of charity? Here are two comments in this very thread that are downvoted. This is not unique to HN, this is a symptom in society that many women and PoCs have written about. I'd be happy to share some links if you are interested. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12013600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12013600 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12013616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12013616 ps oriental? I would have chosen a different link. :) In all seriousness, this is the cultural sensitivity and empathy HN lacks. Having been to South Carolina, I'm not surprised by outdated language, but I hope HN mods know better.
- kelukelugames 10y ago
  Add another example from this thread. This is why tech forums are not inclusive. https://hacker-news.firebaseio.com/v0/item/12016262.json https://hacker-news.firebaseio.com/v0/item/12016262.json
- kelukelugames 10y ago
  Add another example from this thread. This is why tech forums are not inclusive. https://hacker-news.firebaseio.com/v0/item/12016262.json https://hacker-news.firebaseio.com/v0/item/12016262.json
- tptacek 10y ago
  You can't seem to see the difference between bad comment and bad argument. In a thread that could be fairly characterized as "Hacker News tearing to bits a racist comment", you found two bad comments on the thread whose authors happen to agree with you --- and, from what it looks like, the whole rest of the site --- and tried to spin that into a narrative. Why would you do that?