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No, that is not what I said. When people say overtly awful things, they are downvoted. No one defines HN by those. The problem is the well intentioned but naiv

No, that is not what I said. When people say overtly awful things, they are downvoted. No one defines HN by those. The problem is the well intentioned but naive opinions that are upvoted and popular. Do you remember the popular comments from the GitHub diversity posts? Any diversity post for that matter. The demographic here is mostly male. In a homogenous environment, regardless of which combination of race, gender or anything else, people have blindspots. This remains true when the majority of participants are decent. For example, a group of polite dudes can create an environment full of casual sexism. Lastly, I flag insults and one line jokes. Maybe you can help us understand what gets flags and what gets downvotes. However, I am happy the comment is removed. You are right, maybe I don't give the moderation enough credit.

tptacek 10y ago
If you believe, as I do, that subtle (and sometimes over) racism and sexism are real problems for the HN community, it's especially important: (a) not to dismiss HN as a bastion of racism and sexism, as doing so concedes the whole site to those ideas (b) to challenge racist and sexist arguments on the site both reliably and civilly. Most of the people putting those arguments forward are trolls, and are seen as such by the site (watch what gets flagged). One of the most effective strategies race and gender trolls have is to rile up thoughtful people so that they make dumb, angry arguments. It creates a kind of autoimmune disorder on the site. Don't enable them.
- kelukelugames 10y ago
  I don't think they are trolls. The comments are similar to what I hear in real life and I assume they get ample upvotes from HNers because they are near the top. If you always have the patience for a and b then god bless you!
  - tptacek 10y ago
    It's a thousand strangers. My life doesn't get a scintilla better if I can accurately characterize the people who write misogynistic comments on HN as 68% troll or 49% troll. But the task of reliably and civilly challenging prejudice here gets a lot easier the higher that percentage gets, so for my own benefit, I prefer to dial it up as high as it can go, and I'm happier for it. You can relax on challenging racism on HN sometimes. It gets tiresome! You can even walk away entirely. But please don't trash the site on the way out --- that makes the job harder for everyone else taking the time to call out toxic bullshit here. You can't relax on being calm and civil, even in response to comments that don't deserve it. Think about it this way, because this is probably true: every time we fuck up and write a nasty, shrill response to a racist comment, we generate a light-grey negative-rated rebuttal to racism. If we're particularly bad about responding, we'll park that comment next to a racist comment that keeps a neutral score just out of sympathy. Please don't do that.
    - deleted 10y ago
      [deleted]
    - kelukelugames 10y ago
      You can't relax on being calm and civil, even in response to comments that don't deserve it. Think about it this way, because this is probably true: every time we fuck up and write a nasty, shrill response to a racist comment, we generate a light-grey negative-rated rebuttal to racism. If we're particularly bad about responding, we'll park that comment next to a racist comment that keeps a neutral score just out of sympathy. Hacker News! Where reacting to racism is worse than actual racism.
      - tptacek 10y ago
        You can call it whatever you want, but if you make uncivil arguments, it's a fact that: (a) your posts are going to get flagged, and people are going to see that they got flagged, and your "anti-racist" comments are going be penalized, often farther than the racist ones, and (b) you're eventually going to get banned from the site You can huff off to Twitter like the rest of the cool kids when that happens, but I'll observe that there's already a sizable contingent of cool kids claiming that HN is a bastion of misogyny and racism, and Lobsters is no closer to taking over the world for their efforts --- would that it were otherwise! I guess I would sum this up as follows: This is a real problem, and it doesn't have to be about you.
        kelukelugames 10y ago
        Call it whatever I want? It's called tone policing and it's a real problem. You are part of it.
        tptacek 10y ago
        If that's what you want to call moderation and the site guidelines, OK. I know you're not a troll. But you make lazy, weak arguments, and it seems to upset you that they're not winning simply because you're right. You don't have to stay upset and unhappy. There's a better way.
- dang 10y ago
  Thanks for this well-put summary. I've been working on an enhancement of the HN guidelines and may plunder some of your wording.
  - kelukelugames 10y ago
    Daniel, have you considered the other point of view? These comments affect members of HN differently? http://www.robot-hugs.com/tone-policing/ http://www.robot-hugs.com/tone-policing/ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_police http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_police http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/More_flies_with_honey http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/More_flies_with_honey

tptacek 10y ago

If you believe, as I do, that subtle (and sometimes over) racism and sexism are real problems for the HN community, it's especially important: (a) not to dismiss HN as a bastion of racism and sexism, as doing so concedes the whole site to those ideas (b) to challenge racist and sexist arguments on the site both reliably and civilly. Most of the people putting those arguments forward are trolls, and are seen as such by the site (watch what gets flagged). One of the most effective strategies race and gender trolls have is to rile up thoughtful people so that they make dumb, angry arguments. It creates a kind of autoimmune disorder on the site. Don't enable them.

kelukelugames 10y ago
I don't think they are trolls. The comments are similar to what I hear in real life and I assume they get ample upvotes from HNers because they are near the top. If you always have the patience for a and b then god bless you!
- tptacek 10y ago
  It's a thousand strangers. My life doesn't get a scintilla better if I can accurately characterize the people who write misogynistic comments on HN as 68% troll or 49% troll. But the task of reliably and civilly challenging prejudice here gets a lot easier the higher that percentage gets, so for my own benefit, I prefer to dial it up as high as it can go, and I'm happier for it. You can relax on challenging racism on HN sometimes. It gets tiresome! You can even walk away entirely. But please don't trash the site on the way out --- that makes the job harder for everyone else taking the time to call out toxic bullshit here. You can't relax on being calm and civil, even in response to comments that don't deserve it. Think about it this way, because this is probably true: every time we fuck up and write a nasty, shrill response to a racist comment, we generate a light-grey negative-rated rebuttal to racism. If we're particularly bad about responding, we'll park that comment next to a racist comment that keeps a neutral score just out of sympathy. Please don't do that.
  - deleted 10y ago
    [deleted]
  - kelukelugames 10y ago
    You can't relax on being calm and civil, even in response to comments that don't deserve it. Think about it this way, because this is probably true: every time we fuck up and write a nasty, shrill response to a racist comment, we generate a light-grey negative-rated rebuttal to racism. If we're particularly bad about responding, we'll park that comment next to a racist comment that keeps a neutral score just out of sympathy. Hacker News! Where reacting to racism is worse than actual racism.
    - tptacek 10y ago
      You can call it whatever you want, but if you make uncivil arguments, it's a fact that: (a) your posts are going to get flagged, and people are going to see that they got flagged, and your "anti-racist" comments are going be penalized, often farther than the racist ones, and (b) you're eventually going to get banned from the site You can huff off to Twitter like the rest of the cool kids when that happens, but I'll observe that there's already a sizable contingent of cool kids claiming that HN is a bastion of misogyny and racism, and Lobsters is no closer to taking over the world for their efforts --- would that it were otherwise! I guess I would sum this up as follows: This is a real problem, and it doesn't have to be about you.
      - kelukelugames 10y ago
        Call it whatever I want? It's called tone policing and it's a real problem. You are part of it.
        tptacek 10y ago
        If that's what you want to call moderation and the site guidelines, OK. I know you're not a troll. But you make lazy, weak arguments, and it seems to upset you that they're not winning simply because you're right. You don't have to stay upset and unhappy. There's a better way.
dang 10y ago
Thanks for this well-put summary. I've been working on an enhancement of the HN guidelines and may plunder some of your wording.
- kelukelugames 10y ago
  Daniel, have you considered the other point of view? These comments affect members of HN differently? http://www.robot-hugs.com/tone-policing/ http://www.robot-hugs.com/tone-policing/ http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_police http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Tone_police http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/More_flies_with_honey http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/More_flies_with_honey