10 ms·

Interns Get Fired En Masse After Protesting Dress Code at Work

42 points by ytNumbers 10y ago

dingo_bat 10y ago
I think they shouldn't have complained about something that everyone was following, and a formal code is not very uncommon. I also think that firing everyone point blank just because they wrote a letter is an extreme overreaction. They could have been lectured on professional behavior instead and I'm sure most of them would have understood.
- jessriedel 10y ago
  Punishment completely aside, as an employer I'd simply want nothing to do with these intern in the future. Protesting something like this is a good signal of their attitude/perspective.
  - hk__2 10y ago
    > Protesting something like this is a good signal of their attitude/perspective. Why? They saw something they didn’t like and wrote a letter suggesting an alternative. I see that as a very good attitude.
    - jasonkostempski 10y ago
      They based their anger on a stupid assumption and didn't bother to get clarification before going full steam ahead. This wasn't a protest, it was an angry mob.
      - masklinn 10y ago
        > didn't bother to get clarification before going full steam ahead According to the original report they tried to and were shut down: > I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. They were told it was a medical exemption after having been summarily fired. > This wasn't a protest, it was an angry mob. Are you off your rocker? They wrote a fucking proposal they didn't try to put management to the torch.
        jasonkostempski 10y ago
        I've made a stupid assumption and didn't bother to get clarification before commenting full steam ahead.
      - blktiger 10y ago
        Angry mobs don't write letters.
    - droopybuns 10y ago
      Leaders inspire. Many people grow up believing that protesting is the same thing. But at its foundation, it is resisting leadership direction. Managers are people too- and at some point you have to cut your losses if you lose hope that you will be able to inspire your employees. The managers know they are asking extra from the staff with dress codes in this day and age. It doesn't happen naturally, so they write policy. They expect to deal with resistance, and sometimes they are seeking out policy resistors for promotions. But a mass uprising is a huge fiasco to deal with. You are missing the crux of the problem when you say they wrote a letter suggesting an alternative. They drafted a petition against leadership direction and had almost everyone sign it. That is a protest. It is a serious problem for management and it requires action: capitulate to airhead interns who won't be here next year or cancel the program? These kids should have known this, but like many young people, they had an opportunity to learn a lesson the hard way.
  - keithpeter 10y ago
    Management might actually need people who will ask questions or challenge certain kinds of group thinking at some point. You never know what the future might bring.
  - timonovici 10y ago
    So, you would just fire people because they wanted to wear more comfortable shoes, and they sent a letter about it? There are places where shoes/clothing really matters, like a mechanics shop (with their overalls), a construction site (the steel reinforcement of the tip of the shoe), a woodworking shop, where baggy clothing could lead to injury - but that's definitely not the case in the article. These control freaks really annoy me, and I feel lucky to work in IT, most of the places I worked so far would allow you to wear short pants, or whatever.
    - SFJulie 10y ago
      As said in the comments above they where fired because they did naïvely what unions are doing : mutualizing workers' claims to heir hierarchy and make a front. The article take the thesis of the "youth are worse than before" like Socrates was saying (so old story) The real part of the story is due to experience, the older you are the more likely you are to be a manager or a boss. Hence elder generations will always blame new generations for not knowing their place in this system. And younger person will fall for the trick like their elder, because that what bullying is for: engraving a behavior as a collective norm.
- masklinn 10y ago
  > I think they shouldn't have complained about something that everyone was following > they weren’t going to complain. That is, “until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code.” The interns were told that was a medical exemption… after they were mass-fired, but not when they initially inquired about the possibility of relaxed dress code: > I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. > They could have been lectured on professional behavior instead and I'm sure most of them would have understood. I don't understand how sending queries/proposals up the chain is unprofessional behaviour. Ignoring the dress code and coming in not following it would be unprofessional behaviour. They asked informally, they got shut down (rather than answered), they went with a more formal query, they were fired. That's sounds nothing like "interns are guests" but it sounds a lot like Corporate America's reaction to union noises.
  - yesiamyourdad 10y ago
    This is basically an article reporting on an advice column, so it's pretty light on details. Given that the incident was framed as a protest, I'd say that there was likely more to it than simply writing a letter. It could be that the letter took a disrespectful tone, or it could be that they backed up the letter with some kind of protest action. Or maybe the employer is just a douchey company. You can't really tell. Personally I can't imagine a story like this even occurring in 1986. The whole idea of mass protest over something trivial is a very 21st century concept.
    - masklinn 10y ago
      > Given that the incident was framed as a protest The yahoo repost/clickbait framed it as a protest with no evidence I can see, the original source does not frame it as a protest: http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-internship-for-writing-a-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-inter...
  - throwanem 10y ago
toomanythings3 10y ago
I completely agree with the article.
shaftoe 10y ago
Where do they work that still has a strict dress code? Maybe I'm just in the tech industry bubble, but this seems extraordinarily strange for interns, who likely weren't external sales or consultants or one of the few holdovers where suits and sport coats are still a thing.
- imglorp 10y ago
  Financial, banking. East coast.
jrowley 10y ago
I got a job recently that requires business formal dress code. It's was a little frustrating until I read somewhere that by wearing dress clothes your are allowing yourself to kind of be branded by the company and in that way I appreciated it because it allows me to partition my identity into work and nonwork. Part of me still thinks I'd be more productive and happier in my normal street clothes though.
- XorNot 10y ago
  We're casual at work, but when I get home I still always change as soon as possible. However you do it, I think you attach an identity to what you're wearing.
- yesiamyourdad 10y ago
  My first couple jobs required dress pants, a long sleeve button down shirt, and a tie. Back then "casual friday" was a real thing, you could wear a polo and khakis. These days unless you're an attorney or in finance, nobody wears a suit. I work at a place that has a dress code that harks back to the early 90s. After spending my 20's griping about dress codes, I actually enjoy it for the same reason: it's a physical reminder of my work identity vs my non-work identity. I'm curious - how would you be more productive in casual wear? As an engineer, my main gripe was that I often worked in a lab and my tie and slacks would get snagged on the edges of the computer racks. Mostly that was an issue with ruining clothing. At the time, I remember the woman who worked full time running the lab was granted an exception to the dress code for that reason - she was constantly snagging clothing and ruining things from having to crawl around on the floor running cables and things, so they let her wear jeans and more generally rugged clothing.
  - golergka 10y ago
    I think that part of modern work culture is not separating work and non-work identities. I only have this much waking hours a day, it's not enoigh time to maintain two separate identities anyway.
  - raverbashing 10y ago
shrugger2 10y ago
I don't like the rules so I just won't follow them! Wait, you're firing me!?!?!?
projectramo 10y ago
I really want to know what the field is and what the internship was. Not sure why - maybe other HN commentators can help - but my attitude would not be the same if they were bankers, coders or meat packers. Maybe because there are social expectations of what people wear for certain jobs.
heptathorp 10y ago
How is this newsworthy? Some company (not named) fired some interns? Oh I see, this is an excuse to have yet another commentary about how millennials are so self-entitled.
- deleted 10y ago
  [deleted]
- ethanbond 10y ago
  Yeah I'm pretty shocked this is high as it is. I'm skeptical, especially with the "a female veteran who lost her leg." Almost like the "and that boy was Albert Einstein."
- StavrosK 10y ago
  Yep, this is spot on. Young people with no work experience made a mistake that got them fired, let's just flag this article and move on.
anu7df 10y ago
Is there possibly more to this story? As it stands it looks like the interns made a polite request and fired for it. I understand the "intern is a guest" argument, but he/she is also a future employee playing that part and would like to be treated as such. If any polite request is countered by firing I can't imagine that will be a good place to work.
- cddotdotslash 10y ago
  A polite request is asking their respective managers about the dress code and whether it can be relaxed. Creating a petition, circling it among the entire intern group, and essentially demanding change at a place that was generous enough to hire them for a learning experience is not a polite request. I interned at four separate companies when I was younger. I would have never even conceived the idea of doing something like this. Besides the fact that it's three months (seriously, they couldn't wear dress clothes for three months?), a company is not a democracy. I think this might be a side effect of my generation being told they can change anything they want in the world just by signing a petition.
  - masklinn 10y ago
    > A polite request is asking their respective managers about the dress code and whether it can be relaxed Which, according to the original source, is exactly what they did with the supporting argument that at least one employee didn't follow dress code, resulting in them being shut down with no answer: > I felt the dress code was overly strict but I wasn’t going to say anything, until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code. > I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me.
    - StavrosK 10y ago
      Maybe the other employee had a health issue that prevented them from wearing dress shoes, and management didn't want to share that private information? It definitely sounds like management would prefer to force the lone employee to follow dress code than to allow everyone else to break it.
awt 10y ago
Proto SJWs.
Houshalter 10y ago
According to the article they didn't even disobey the dress code, or cause any real commotion. They just sent a letter just asking for a rule to be changed slightly for practical reasons. Is it really ethical to fire an entire group of people for merely questioning a rule? Is this really evidence they are "entitled" as comments here are saying? Perhaps the letter was worded very rudely?
- masklinn 10y ago
  > Is it really ethical to fire an entire group of people for merely questioning a rule? Corporate America doesn't concern itself with ethics. Interns sending a common proposal (however polite) up the management chain is one step removed from unionisation, which is one thing Corporate America will shut down sites or states over.
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    You've gotten downvoted because of the tone of your comment, but I think the argument you're making is sound. The US work culture is very much against employees' rights, and expressing yourself is a right. They didn't stop working, they didn't harm anything, they just sent a letter that said "hey, these 10 people want X" and they got fired over it.
- StavrosK 10y ago
  I don't think it is, it sounds like the company is rather tyrannical and will not tolerate employees expressing something they want as a group. Ideally, since employers hold most of the power, it should be feasible for employees to band together to even the playing field. This company is one I wouldn't want to work for. That said, this article is non-news and it's just trying to manufacture outrage. I've flagged it.
throwanem 10y ago
I've never understood the mindset in which something as trivial as what you wear to work actually seems like a big deal.
- olau 10y ago
  Can't remember if it's Seven Day Weekend or Peopleware were they talk about the furniture police. I don't understand it either. I think some people find it threatening that the employees are actually human, silly as it sounds.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    Sorry, I think you've got the wrong end. What confuses me is that being expected to dress like a grownup is something a lot of people apparently find galling enough to get up in arms about.
- ethanbond 10y ago
  It's probably a mindset unique to people who have to wear uncomfortable clothes 12 hours a day to fetch coffee for their abusive superiors.
  - throwanem 10y ago
    What a shame they have no other options in life, then.
havella 10y ago
The key here is signaling. The interns showed that either they don't understand the game or that the have an 'union' like attitude towards employment. Either way not atractive for an employer.
- dleslie 10y ago
  And the employer made themselves unattractive to a socially-connected group.
SFJulie 10y ago
Hum Short sleeves and shorts have a positive impact on ecology and money savings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Biz_campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Biz_campaign I mean concerned citizens are hammered between increasingly enforced orders of being a good citizens (that don't pollute or be honest), while companies may make them do stuff that makes them bad citizens (pollution or tax frauds). And the more a citizen does not comply with either one or the other role he gets more and more hammered down. This world is crazy.
- throwanem 10y ago
  > Short sleeves and shorts have a positive impact on ecology and money savings Yeah - short sleeves, short pants, and a mandated indoor temperature over eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Talk about enforced good citizenship!
magoon 10y ago
Unrelated, but Yahoo may be desperate for page views if they're auto-refreshing several times while I'm trying to read the article.
daly 10y ago
Mad Men: I worked at IBM Office Products Division Headquarters in the 1970s. Dress code was full suit with a white shirt. I was a systems programmer on the IBM 360 Mainframe. One day I walked from my office, into the hall, to the print room 2 doors away without my suit jacket. I got "written up" (a very bad thing). In those days even IBM Field Service Engineers who repaired Selectric Typewriters wore suits. Their shoes were so well shined you could see your face in them. These days I work from home. Sometimes I walk the hall to the cafeteria (the kitchen) without my suit jacket. I expect to be written up sometime soon. Here's a clue a very senior manager (Ralph Gomory, IBM Research Division President) once gave me... Managers make decisions. Only go to management with your need for a decision and always present the options. They went to management with what was, in essence, a complaint. Worse, it was a complaint that had nothing to do with the business. Clearly they were not keeping the business uppermost in their priority queue. So management made a business decision and fixed the problem. We had a "mass revolt" among the systems programmers across all of the IBM internal sites. We would only get "upgraded processors" after the customer returned an old one. We were working on trailing edge equipment. Unfortunately our internal memos (the "Tandem Memos") got leaked to Computer World (the big newspaper of the day). I got called "on the carpet" by senior management. I expected to be fired. Fortunately IBM Corporate management saw that we were complaining about the business, not about personal issues. They changed the policy and we got leading edge equipment. Mass protests sometimes work but they need to focus on improving the business. Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code protests matter.
- raverbashing 10y ago
  > Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code protests matter. Of course it doesn't have anything to do with the business But some companies will see their good employes leave, old employees retire and then won't find out why they can't compete and can only retain the worse professionals.
  - daly 10y ago
    I am unable to make payroll this month. The problem on my desk is how to either increase revenue or reduce expense. Banks don't loan money these days (try it) and they especially don't loan money to cover operating expenses. You wander into my office with a "petition" signed by some employees stating that the "Free coffee needs a better quality bean" or "We want to wear jeans to work". It looks to me that you've just solved both of my problems. A few less employees who fail to focus on improving the business will help me reduce expenses and make payroll. It also gives me some spare cash to buy better quality coffee. Both problems solved by self-selection. People seem to think that "being a good culture fit" is a new idea. But IBM used to "write up" employees who failed the dress code as "not a good culture fit". If the company wants polo shirts, wear polo shirts. If the company wants suits, wear suits. Running a company is hard. Your suppliers demand immediate payment. Your retailers demand volume discounts. Your sales people want "promotion specials". Your landlord wants more money. Your employees demand "competitive wages". Your competition announced a new product. Your major customer threatened to quit.... And YOU want to argue about dress code? Will all those who don't focus on improving the business please step forward.
analog31 10y ago
Anecdote: When I was an intern in the 80s, at a large mainframe computer facility, there was no dress code. But at that time, there was a widespread rumor that people who dressed better, were treated better. I got a couple pairs of polyester pants and some button down shirts at a discount store. The other interns wore jeans, tee shirts, and sneakers. Sure enough, I was treated better. While the other interns were crawling around pulling cables, I got to sit at a desk and program a computer. Wearing business attire also got me better treatment when I needed it, such as dealing with some bureaucracy, or even retailers. I'd be interested in knowing if this was still the case. If it's important enough to be fired for, I'd spend a few more bucks and dress nicer, as an investment, especially around performance review time.
greenyoda 10y ago
Previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12020506 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12020506 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12001730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12001730
enkitosh 10y ago
I'm really surprised how many people in the comment section of this article defend the facist acts of this company. As if controlling how you dress is not a big deal, it's actually a very big deal. "Welcome to the real world kid", indicating this is somewhat a childish behaviour. Well if this is the real world it needs to be told that this is not acceptable. So I'm a programmer and a transvestite meaning that yes I like to wear what is considered to be women's clothing. Basically I just like to wear whatever I like and makes me feel comfortable whether it was designed to be used by men or women. Most days I'm lazy in the morning so I put on very casual clothing but I decided that every Monday I would wear something extreme so I wear dresses, colourful skirts, stockings, whatever. I wanted to do this because of two reasons. First off Mondays can be very grey and boring. People return from their weekend holiday and generally feel a bit depressed having to start this weekly routine again. The other reason and the most important one is that we are to be accepted whatever we choose to wear. If a person cannot accept what I wear it's really their problem not mine. The company I work for is very flexible and open minded about these sort of things but if anyone would tell me to stop doing this I would quit immediately, no questions asked. The company that you work for does not own you. Your boss is not your parent why should he/she get to limit your freedom of expression by telling you what to wear? Especially if you do not have to deal with customers (of course I understand that companies can have rules when their employees are facing customers that's a totally different story). I don't know how your jobs are but I feel in mine I generally contribute a lot of time, effort and talent to it. A progress made in something I contribute to does not just happen because the company planned it. I can accept that I stay on the same wages while people higher in the hierarchy benefit greatly from something I achieved. That's just how companies work and I get paid well, I'm not complaining. However I will never accept someone trying to have affect on my appearance, not even as an intern. Sure interns have to prove that they are fit for the job but that goes for the work they provide, has nothing to do with what they wear. And this has nothing to do with millennials or how they are self entitled. This is about basic human rights of all generations. Companies get 9 hours of our daily lives they shouldn't also get to choose what's in our wardrobe.
- dogma1138 10y ago
  Fascist? really, have you ever lived under fascism or dictatorship? This is welcome to the real world kid, infact this should never have happened I don't understand how would anyone over 12 would think that a petition at your workplace could or should work. You don't know what circumstances was she working at, you don't know why they were ordered to wear dress clothes (uniforms are pretty damn good for instilling discipline). Now I understand you situation and you also need to understand that not everyone has to be accepting of your situation including your employer this is perfectly acceptable without being discriminatory. You work as a programmer which means that you can wear pretty much what you want as long as you do not meet business clients or customers but not everyone else is in the same position as you. Some employees end up handling people, some of them just end up being in sight of customers, I don't care what you wear when you code something in a cubicle, but I don't want the worker in a funeral home wearing some crap, or my lawyer in a courtroom. And you are right the company you work for does not own you, but the same goes the other way, it does not owe you anything either. It provides you with an environment in which you can trade your time for pay under a set of agreed circumstances if you do not agree to follow those guidelines you can find another place that allows you to trade your time for money under more palatable or acceptable terms. So yes this has everything to do with "millennials" or well considering that I am one, entitlement and more like it than not way too many years of pampering by her parents and the educational system that had it's balance of power turned upside down that led her to believe she can just do everything if she signs a petition no matter how passive aggressive her behaviour is in reality. But overall good for you for not accepting anyone to have an effect on your appearance but with all due respect that's your personal choice you can't claim it to be more important than the company you might work for one day wanting to present a specific image of it's employees that conflicts with your own personal dress code. At that moment you'll have a choice how much does your external look and what you wear affect who you actually are, if they are that big part of your life that you can't simply change it well then you are at an impasse but please don't make it to be that you somehow are better than a company that has a dress code when you have one too.
ohnomrbill 10y ago
I would fire them too, with these reasons: 1. The interns saw a dress code violation and escalated immediately, without informing the out-of-line employee. From the original blog post [0]: "I felt the dress code was overly strict but I wasn’t going to say anything, until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code. I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it." I'm certain the interns did not ask this coworker why they came in wearing non-standard shoes, because management had to tell them about the disability after the fact. Going directly to management to censure a coworker without discussing the issue with the coworker is sometimes justified. Minor dress code violations are not an instance where that behavior is justified. If this isn't apparent to the interns, that raises questions about their judgment. 2. The interns persisted in making it an issue after the first rejection. Again, there are some workplace situations where it is appropriate to keep raising an issue after your first proposal is rejected. Minor dress code violations are not one of those situations. Again, from the blog post: "I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. We decided to write a proposal stating why we should be allowed someone leeway under the dress code." The proposal which led to their termination was not the first discussion of the issue. They asked, management considered their request and came to a decision. They then took more time (presumably out of the workday, though this is not clear) to write a petition restating the request. Continuing to focus on a very minor issue at the expense of more important things is another strike against their judgment. 3. The interns asked for much more leeway than the original infraction. The coworker who inspired their petition wore non-standard shoes, hardly a large violation of the dress code. In response, "[The interns] requested that we also be allowed to wear running shoes and non leather flats, as well as sandals (not flip-flops though) and other non-dress shoes that would fit under a more business casual dress code. It was mostly about the footwear, but we also incorporated a request that we not have to wear suits and/or blazers in favor of a more casual, but still professional dress code." Seeing one employee wearing non-standard shoes is not an endorsement of a less-stringent dress code by management. It is odd that they take the dress code so seriously, yet take the example of one employee not wearing leather shoes as a sign that the dress code can be relaxed to exclude suits. That hypocrisy on the part of the interns is at least as bad as any perceived hypocrisy on the part of management. All of these lapses in judgment are bad enough to warrant censure. If an employee did this, counseling would be in order. But interns are explicitly not full-time, salaried employees - it is a trial run. (I don't take Alison Green's view that they are guests, but they aren't full employees either.) If the company's goal in having internships is to evaluate potential employees, then a lapse in judgment like this might mean that the company's interest is to let them go before the official end date. [0] http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-internship-for-writing-a-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-inter...
ryan_mass18 10y ago
This story made me so happy. I am so sick and tired of the coddled very vocal minority that is taking over our colleges, so I say we all stand up and give these managers a standing ovation. Thank you ladies and gentleman I am so proud of fellow working Americans like me.
freddie14 10y ago
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42 points by ytNumbers 10y ago

I think they shouldn't have complained about something that everyone was following, and a formal code is not very uncommon. I also think that firing everyone point blank just because they wrote a letter is an extreme overreaction. They could have been lectured on professional behavior instead and I'm sure most of them would have understood.

jessriedel 10y ago
Punishment completely aside, as an employer I'd simply want nothing to do with these intern in the future. Protesting something like this is a good signal of their attitude/perspective.
- hk__2 10y ago
  > Protesting something like this is a good signal of their attitude/perspective. Why? They saw something they didn’t like and wrote a letter suggesting an alternative. I see that as a very good attitude.
  - jasonkostempski 10y ago
    They based their anger on a stupid assumption and didn't bother to get clarification before going full steam ahead. This wasn't a protest, it was an angry mob.
    - masklinn 10y ago
      > didn't bother to get clarification before going full steam ahead According to the original report they tried to and were shut down: > I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. They were told it was a medical exemption after having been summarily fired. > This wasn't a protest, it was an angry mob. Are you off your rocker? They wrote a fucking proposal they didn't try to put management to the torch.
      - jasonkostempski 10y ago
        I've made a stupid assumption and didn't bother to get clarification before commenting full steam ahead.
    - blktiger 10y ago
      Angry mobs don't write letters.
  - droopybuns 10y ago
    Leaders inspire. Many people grow up believing that protesting is the same thing. But at its foundation, it is resisting leadership direction. Managers are people too- and at some point you have to cut your losses if you lose hope that you will be able to inspire your employees. The managers know they are asking extra from the staff with dress codes in this day and age. It doesn't happen naturally, so they write policy. They expect to deal with resistance, and sometimes they are seeking out policy resistors for promotions. But a mass uprising is a huge fiasco to deal with. You are missing the crux of the problem when you say they wrote a letter suggesting an alternative. They drafted a petition against leadership direction and had almost everyone sign it. That is a protest. It is a serious problem for management and it requires action: capitulate to airhead interns who won't be here next year or cancel the program? These kids should have known this, but like many young people, they had an opportunity to learn a lesson the hard way.
- keithpeter 10y ago
  Management might actually need people who will ask questions or challenge certain kinds of group thinking at some point. You never know what the future might bring.
- timonovici 10y ago
  So, you would just fire people because they wanted to wear more comfortable shoes, and they sent a letter about it? There are places where shoes/clothing really matters, like a mechanics shop (with their overalls), a construction site (the steel reinforcement of the tip of the shoe), a woodworking shop, where baggy clothing could lead to injury - but that's definitely not the case in the article. These control freaks really annoy me, and I feel lucky to work in IT, most of the places I worked so far would allow you to wear short pants, or whatever.
  - SFJulie 10y ago
    As said in the comments above they where fired because they did naïvely what unions are doing : mutualizing workers' claims to heir hierarchy and make a front. The article take the thesis of the "youth are worse than before" like Socrates was saying (so old story) The real part of the story is due to experience, the older you are the more likely you are to be a manager or a boss. Hence elder generations will always blame new generations for not knowing their place in this system. And younger person will fall for the trick like their elder, because that what bullying is for: engraving a behavior as a collective norm.
masklinn 10y ago
> I think they shouldn't have complained about something that everyone was following > they weren’t going to complain. That is, “until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code.” The interns were told that was a medical exemption… after they were mass-fired, but not when they initially inquired about the possibility of relaxed dress code: > I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. > They could have been lectured on professional behavior instead and I'm sure most of them would have understood. I don't understand how sending queries/proposals up the chain is unprofessional behaviour. Ignoring the dress code and coming in not following it would be unprofessional behaviour. They asked informally, they got shut down (rather than answered), they went with a more formal query, they were fired. That's sounds nothing like "interns are guests" but it sounds a lot like Corporate America's reaction to union noises.
- yesiamyourdad 10y ago
  This is basically an article reporting on an advice column, so it's pretty light on details. Given that the incident was framed as a protest, I'd say that there was likely more to it than simply writing a letter. It could be that the letter took a disrespectful tone, or it could be that they backed up the letter with some kind of protest action. Or maybe the employer is just a douchey company. You can't really tell. Personally I can't imagine a story like this even occurring in 1986. The whole idea of mass protest over something trivial is a very 21st century concept.
  - masklinn 10y ago
    > Given that the incident was framed as a protest The yahoo repost/clickbait framed it as a protest with no evidence I can see, the original source does not frame it as a protest: http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-internship-for-writing-a-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-inter...
- throwanem 10y ago

toomanythings3 10y ago

I completely agree with the article.

shaftoe 10y ago

Where do they work that still has a strict dress code? Maybe I'm just in the tech industry bubble, but this seems extraordinarily strange for interns, who likely weren't external sales or consultants or one of the few holdovers where suits and sport coats are still a thing.

imglorp 10y ago
Financial, banking. East coast.

jrowley 10y ago

I got a job recently that requires business formal dress code. It's was a little frustrating until I read somewhere that by wearing dress clothes your are allowing yourself to kind of be branded by the company and in that way I appreciated it because it allows me to partition my identity into work and nonwork. Part of me still thinks I'd be more productive and happier in my normal street clothes though.

XorNot 10y ago
We're casual at work, but when I get home I still always change as soon as possible. However you do it, I think you attach an identity to what you're wearing.
yesiamyourdad 10y ago
My first couple jobs required dress pants, a long sleeve button down shirt, and a tie. Back then "casual friday" was a real thing, you could wear a polo and khakis. These days unless you're an attorney or in finance, nobody wears a suit. I work at a place that has a dress code that harks back to the early 90s. After spending my 20's griping about dress codes, I actually enjoy it for the same reason: it's a physical reminder of my work identity vs my non-work identity. I'm curious - how would you be more productive in casual wear? As an engineer, my main gripe was that I often worked in a lab and my tie and slacks would get snagged on the edges of the computer racks. Mostly that was an issue with ruining clothing. At the time, I remember the woman who worked full time running the lab was granted an exception to the dress code for that reason - she was constantly snagging clothing and ruining things from having to crawl around on the floor running cables and things, so they let her wear jeans and more generally rugged clothing.
- golergka 10y ago
  I think that part of modern work culture is not separating work and non-work identities. I only have this much waking hours a day, it's not enoigh time to maintain two separate identities anyway.
- raverbashing 10y ago

shrugger2 10y ago

I don't like the rules so I just won't follow them! Wait, you're firing me!?!?!?

projectramo 10y ago

I really want to know what the field is and what the internship was. Not sure why - maybe other HN commentators can help - but my attitude would not be the same if they were bankers, coders or meat packers. Maybe because there are social expectations of what people wear for certain jobs.

heptathorp 10y ago

How is this newsworthy? Some company (not named) fired some interns? Oh I see, this is an excuse to have yet another commentary about how millennials are so self-entitled.

deleted 10y ago
[deleted]
ethanbond 10y ago
Yeah I'm pretty shocked this is high as it is. I'm skeptical, especially with the "a female veteran who lost her leg." Almost like the "and that boy was Albert Einstein."
StavrosK 10y ago
Yep, this is spot on. Young people with no work experience made a mistake that got them fired, let's just flag this article and move on.

anu7df 10y ago

Is there possibly more to this story? As it stands it looks like the interns made a polite request and fired for it. I understand the "intern is a guest" argument, but he/she is also a future employee playing that part and would like to be treated as such. If any polite request is countered by firing I can't imagine that will be a good place to work.

cddotdotslash 10y ago
A polite request is asking their respective managers about the dress code and whether it can be relaxed. Creating a petition, circling it among the entire intern group, and essentially demanding change at a place that was generous enough to hire them for a learning experience is not a polite request. I interned at four separate companies when I was younger. I would have never even conceived the idea of doing something like this. Besides the fact that it's three months (seriously, they couldn't wear dress clothes for three months?), a company is not a democracy. I think this might be a side effect of my generation being told they can change anything they want in the world just by signing a petition.
- masklinn 10y ago
  > A polite request is asking their respective managers about the dress code and whether it can be relaxed Which, according to the original source, is exactly what they did with the supporting argument that at least one employee didn't follow dress code, resulting in them being shut down with no answer: > I felt the dress code was overly strict but I wasn’t going to say anything, until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code. > I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me.
  - StavrosK 10y ago
    Maybe the other employee had a health issue that prevented them from wearing dress shoes, and management didn't want to share that private information? It definitely sounds like management would prefer to force the lone employee to follow dress code than to allow everyone else to break it.

awt 10y ago

Proto SJWs.

Houshalter 10y ago

According to the article they didn't even disobey the dress code, or cause any real commotion. They just sent a letter just asking for a rule to be changed slightly for practical reasons. Is it really ethical to fire an entire group of people for merely questioning a rule? Is this really evidence they are "entitled" as comments here are saying? Perhaps the letter was worded very rudely?

masklinn 10y ago
> Is it really ethical to fire an entire group of people for merely questioning a rule? Corporate America doesn't concern itself with ethics. Interns sending a common proposal (however polite) up the management chain is one step removed from unionisation, which is one thing Corporate America will shut down sites or states over.
- StavrosK 10y ago
  You've gotten downvoted because of the tone of your comment, but I think the argument you're making is sound. The US work culture is very much against employees' rights, and expressing yourself is a right. They didn't stop working, they didn't harm anything, they just sent a letter that said "hey, these 10 people want X" and they got fired over it.
StavrosK 10y ago
I don't think it is, it sounds like the company is rather tyrannical and will not tolerate employees expressing something they want as a group. Ideally, since employers hold most of the power, it should be feasible for employees to band together to even the playing field. This company is one I wouldn't want to work for. That said, this article is non-news and it's just trying to manufacture outrage. I've flagged it.

throwanem 10y ago

I've never understood the mindset in which something as trivial as what you wear to work actually seems like a big deal.

olau 10y ago
Can't remember if it's Seven Day Weekend or Peopleware were they talk about the furniture police. I don't understand it either. I think some people find it threatening that the employees are actually human, silly as it sounds.
- throwanem 10y ago
  Sorry, I think you've got the wrong end. What confuses me is that being expected to dress like a grownup is something a lot of people apparently find galling enough to get up in arms about.
ethanbond 10y ago
It's probably a mindset unique to people who have to wear uncomfortable clothes 12 hours a day to fetch coffee for their abusive superiors.
- throwanem 10y ago
  What a shame they have no other options in life, then.

havella 10y ago

The key here is signaling. The interns showed that either they don't understand the game or that the have an 'union' like attitude towards employment. Either way not atractive for an employer.

dleslie 10y ago
And the employer made themselves unattractive to a socially-connected group.

SFJulie 10y ago

Hum Short sleeves and shorts have a positive impact on ecology and money savings. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Biz_campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Biz_campaign I mean concerned citizens are hammered between increasingly enforced orders of being a good citizens (that don't pollute or be honest), while companies may make them do stuff that makes them bad citizens (pollution or tax frauds). And the more a citizen does not comply with either one or the other role he gets more and more hammered down. This world is crazy.

throwanem 10y ago
> Short sleeves and shorts have a positive impact on ecology and money savings Yeah - short sleeves, short pants, and a mandated indoor temperature over eighty degrees Fahrenheit. Talk about enforced good citizenship!

magoon 10y ago

Unrelated, but Yahoo may be desperate for page views if they're auto-refreshing several times while I'm trying to read the article.

daly 10y ago

Mad Men: I worked at IBM Office Products Division Headquarters in the 1970s. Dress code was full suit with a white shirt. I was a systems programmer on the IBM 360 Mainframe. One day I walked from my office, into the hall, to the print room 2 doors away without my suit jacket. I got "written up" (a very bad thing). In those days even IBM Field Service Engineers who repaired Selectric Typewriters wore suits. Their shoes were so well shined you could see your face in them. These days I work from home. Sometimes I walk the hall to the cafeteria (the kitchen) without my suit jacket. I expect to be written up sometime soon. Here's a clue a very senior manager (Ralph Gomory, IBM Research Division President) once gave me... Managers make decisions. Only go to management with your need for a decision and always present the options. They went to management with what was, in essence, a complaint. Worse, it was a complaint that had nothing to do with the business. Clearly they were not keeping the business uppermost in their priority queue. So management made a business decision and fixed the problem. We had a "mass revolt" among the systems programmers across all of the IBM internal sites. We would only get "upgraded processors" after the customer returned an old one. We were working on trailing edge equipment. Unfortunately our internal memos (the "Tandem Memos") got leaked to Computer World (the big newspaper of the day). I got called "on the carpet" by senior management. I expected to be fired. Fortunately IBM Corporate management saw that we were complaining about the business, not about personal issues. They changed the policy and we got leading edge equipment. Mass protests sometimes work but they need to focus on improving the business. Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code protests matter.

raverbashing 10y ago
> Unless you're in the fashion business it is hard to see how dress code protests matter. Of course it doesn't have anything to do with the business But some companies will see their good employes leave, old employees retire and then won't find out why they can't compete and can only retain the worse professionals.
- daly 10y ago
  I am unable to make payroll this month. The problem on my desk is how to either increase revenue or reduce expense. Banks don't loan money these days (try it) and they especially don't loan money to cover operating expenses. You wander into my office with a "petition" signed by some employees stating that the "Free coffee needs a better quality bean" or "We want to wear jeans to work". It looks to me that you've just solved both of my problems. A few less employees who fail to focus on improving the business will help me reduce expenses and make payroll. It also gives me some spare cash to buy better quality coffee. Both problems solved by self-selection. People seem to think that "being a good culture fit" is a new idea. But IBM used to "write up" employees who failed the dress code as "not a good culture fit". If the company wants polo shirts, wear polo shirts. If the company wants suits, wear suits. Running a company is hard. Your suppliers demand immediate payment. Your retailers demand volume discounts. Your sales people want "promotion specials". Your landlord wants more money. Your employees demand "competitive wages". Your competition announced a new product. Your major customer threatened to quit.... And YOU want to argue about dress code? Will all those who don't focus on improving the business please step forward.

analog31 10y ago

Anecdote: When I was an intern in the 80s, at a large mainframe computer facility, there was no dress code. But at that time, there was a widespread rumor that people who dressed better, were treated better. I got a couple pairs of polyester pants and some button down shirts at a discount store. The other interns wore jeans, tee shirts, and sneakers. Sure enough, I was treated better. While the other interns were crawling around pulling cables, I got to sit at a desk and program a computer. Wearing business attire also got me better treatment when I needed it, such as dealing with some bureaucracy, or even retailers. I'd be interested in knowing if this was still the case. If it's important enough to be fired for, I'd spend a few more bucks and dress nicer, as an investment, especially around performance review time.

greenyoda 10y ago

Previous discussions: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12020506 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12020506 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12001730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12001730

enkitosh 10y ago

I'm really surprised how many people in the comment section of this article defend the facist acts of this company. As if controlling how you dress is not a big deal, it's actually a very big deal. "Welcome to the real world kid", indicating this is somewhat a childish behaviour. Well if this is the real world it needs to be told that this is not acceptable. So I'm a programmer and a transvestite meaning that yes I like to wear what is considered to be women's clothing. Basically I just like to wear whatever I like and makes me feel comfortable whether it was designed to be used by men or women. Most days I'm lazy in the morning so I put on very casual clothing but I decided that every Monday I would wear something extreme so I wear dresses, colourful skirts, stockings, whatever. I wanted to do this because of two reasons. First off Mondays can be very grey and boring. People return from their weekend holiday and generally feel a bit depressed having to start this weekly routine again. The other reason and the most important one is that we are to be accepted whatever we choose to wear. If a person cannot accept what I wear it's really their problem not mine. The company I work for is very flexible and open minded about these sort of things but if anyone would tell me to stop doing this I would quit immediately, no questions asked. The company that you work for does not own you. Your boss is not your parent why should he/she get to limit your freedom of expression by telling you what to wear? Especially if you do not have to deal with customers (of course I understand that companies can have rules when their employees are facing customers that's a totally different story). I don't know how your jobs are but I feel in mine I generally contribute a lot of time, effort and talent to it. A progress made in something I contribute to does not just happen because the company planned it. I can accept that I stay on the same wages while people higher in the hierarchy benefit greatly from something I achieved. That's just how companies work and I get paid well, I'm not complaining. However I will never accept someone trying to have affect on my appearance, not even as an intern. Sure interns have to prove that they are fit for the job but that goes for the work they provide, has nothing to do with what they wear. And this has nothing to do with millennials or how they are self entitled. This is about basic human rights of all generations. Companies get 9 hours of our daily lives they shouldn't also get to choose what's in our wardrobe.

dogma1138 10y ago
Fascist? really, have you ever lived under fascism or dictatorship? This is welcome to the real world kid, infact this should never have happened I don't understand how would anyone over 12 would think that a petition at your workplace could or should work. You don't know what circumstances was she working at, you don't know why they were ordered to wear dress clothes (uniforms are pretty damn good for instilling discipline). Now I understand you situation and you also need to understand that not everyone has to be accepting of your situation including your employer this is perfectly acceptable without being discriminatory. You work as a programmer which means that you can wear pretty much what you want as long as you do not meet business clients or customers but not everyone else is in the same position as you. Some employees end up handling people, some of them just end up being in sight of customers, I don't care what you wear when you code something in a cubicle, but I don't want the worker in a funeral home wearing some crap, or my lawyer in a courtroom. And you are right the company you work for does not own you, but the same goes the other way, it does not owe you anything either. It provides you with an environment in which you can trade your time for pay under a set of agreed circumstances if you do not agree to follow those guidelines you can find another place that allows you to trade your time for money under more palatable or acceptable terms. So yes this has everything to do with "millennials" or well considering that I am one, entitlement and more like it than not way too many years of pampering by her parents and the educational system that had it's balance of power turned upside down that led her to believe she can just do everything if she signs a petition no matter how passive aggressive her behaviour is in reality. But overall good for you for not accepting anyone to have an effect on your appearance but with all due respect that's your personal choice you can't claim it to be more important than the company you might work for one day wanting to present a specific image of it's employees that conflicts with your own personal dress code. At that moment you'll have a choice how much does your external look and what you wear affect who you actually are, if they are that big part of your life that you can't simply change it well then you are at an impasse but please don't make it to be that you somehow are better than a company that has a dress code when you have one too.

ohnomrbill 10y ago

I would fire them too, with these reasons: 1. The interns saw a dress code violation and escalated immediately, without informing the out-of-line employee. From the original blog post [0]: "I felt the dress code was overly strict but I wasn’t going to say anything, until I noticed one of the workers always wore flat shoes that were made from a fabric other than leather, or running shoes, even though both of these things were contrary to the dress code. I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it." I'm certain the interns did not ask this coworker why they came in wearing non-standard shoes, because management had to tell them about the disability after the fact. Going directly to management to censure a coworker without discussing the issue with the coworker is sometimes justified. Minor dress code violations are not an instance where that behavior is justified. If this isn't apparent to the interns, that raises questions about their judgment. 2. The interns persisted in making it an issue after the first rejection. Again, there are some workplace situations where it is appropriate to keep raising an issue after your first proposal is rejected. Minor dress code violations are not one of those situations. Again, from the blog post: "I spoke with my manager about being allowed some leeway under the dress code and was told this was not possible, despite the other person being allowed to do it. I soon found out that many of the other interns felt the same way, and the ones who asked their managers about it were told the same thing as me. We decided to write a proposal stating why we should be allowed someone leeway under the dress code." The proposal which led to their termination was not the first discussion of the issue. They asked, management considered their request and came to a decision. They then took more time (presumably out of the workday, though this is not clear) to write a petition restating the request. Continuing to focus on a very minor issue at the expense of more important things is another strike against their judgment. 3. The interns asked for much more leeway than the original infraction. The coworker who inspired their petition wore non-standard shoes, hardly a large violation of the dress code. In response, "[The interns] requested that we also be allowed to wear running shoes and non leather flats, as well as sandals (not flip-flops though) and other non-dress shoes that would fit under a more business casual dress code. It was mostly about the footwear, but we also incorporated a request that we not have to wear suits and/or blazers in favor of a more casual, but still professional dress code." Seeing one employee wearing non-standard shoes is not an endorsement of a less-stringent dress code by management. It is odd that they take the dress code so seriously, yet take the example of one employee not wearing leather shoes as a sign that the dress code can be relaxed to exclude suits. That hypocrisy on the part of the interns is at least as bad as any perceived hypocrisy on the part of management. All of these lapses in judgment are bad enough to warrant censure. If an employee did this, counseling would be in order. But interns are explicitly not full-time, salaried employees - it is a trial run. (I don't take Alison Green's view that they are guests, but they aren't full employees either.) If the company's goal in having internships is to evaluate potential employees, then a lapse in judgment like this might mean that the company's interest is to let them go before the official end date. [0] http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-internship-for-writing-a-proposal-for-a-more-flexible-dress-code.html http://www.askamanager.org/2016/06/i-was-fired-from-my-inter...

ryan_mass18 10y ago

This story made me so happy. I am so sick and tired of the coddled very vocal minority that is taking over our colleges, so I say we all stand up and give these managers a standing ovation. Thank you ladies and gentleman I am so proud of fellow working Americans like me.

freddie14 10y ago

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