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The constitution of the United States + the Bill of Rights were all designed and argued about in secrecy. This was so the politicians in the room could actually

by cm2012 10y ago

The constitution of the United States + the Bill of Rights were all designed and argued about in secrecy. This was so the politicians in the room could actually be honest and negotiate rather than pander to their states short sighted interests.

Zigurd 10y ago
How much that's exempt from FOIA is so high minded? It is 99.999% ass-coverage through secrecy and you know it.
- ethbro 10y ago
  Surprisingly, most people in government, as elsewhere, spend a majority of their time simply trying to get their work done. Is there malfeasance and corruption? Certainly. Is the solution to go to 100% open records in a hyper-politicized environment? I'm less sure. I know I wouldn't want Fox News / MSNBC combing over every email I've ever sent in the course of doing my job.
  - Zigurd 10y ago
    I'm not talking about malfeasance and corruption. I'm talking about embarrassment and enablement of dubious practices. FOIA should rightly make that painful.
    - ethbro 10y ago
      On one hand you have dubious practices. On the other hand you have political football / back-stabbing. My point is that I believe the public interest is best served by a balance between "the public knows how this business was conducted" vs "any rival who wants my job can dig through everything I've done to find some dirt of me." Politicians, functionaries, and executive staff are people too. And I think HN can be a bit schizophrenic decrying "people in government are so ineffectual and unwilling to take risks" while simultaneously designing a purity litmus test where only the most boring, unadventurous apparatchiks are able to keep their jobs.
      - Zigurd 10y ago
        > My point is that I believe the public interest is best served by a balance between "the public knows how this business was conducted" vs "any rival who wants my job can dig through everything I've done to find some dirt of me." Was that ever a standard for exemption from FOIA? Much less the intent of anyone writing any part of FOIA? Stupidity should hurt.
        ethbro 10y ago
        Your original point was that "99.999% [of FOIA exemptions are] ass-coverage through secrecy" and that's a bad thing. I disagree for the reasons I specified. If stupidity were cause for dismissal, we'd have a hard time staffing most of the jobs in the world.
  - srtjstjsj 10y ago
    Why not?
  - vertex-four 10y ago
    Working for the Government isn't "just a job" though. The Government holds a huge amount of power over people - and not just the people who pass the laws, but every department that has to come up with its own policies and processes. Everything the Government does affects somebody in a way that few businesses can. A bad process can literally result in death in some cases (although the third sector attempts to help when Government fails). People already get into Kafkaesque situations on a regular basis due to either the department's employees not understanding its own policies, or not knowing the magic words to use. The only way to protect against that is to allow people to force the Government to give them information. Personally, I've used FOIA responses in the UK to great effect in forcing the NHS to follow their own procedures (not medical ones, admin ones).
    - ethbro 10y ago
      Few business, but gradually more and more. The decisions that Google, Monsanto, MSNBC, Fox News, Dow, or even Walmart make are starting to have more impact than US government decisions. And I absolutely agree with your comment, but per my comment below, I think 100% transparency carries its own risks in making government less effective. If the UN and large bureaucratic organizations have taught us anything it's that position jockeying gets ruthless when promotions are a zero sum game because of no organizational growth.
srtjstjsj 10y ago
No, the framer published articles and books putting forth there arguments, then briefly privately discussed a proposal to vote on. You may recall something called the Three-Fifths compromise, which pandered to the states' short-sighted interests.
- marcoperaza 10y ago
  "Briefly" is an interesting way to describe four months.

by cm2012 10y ago

Zigurd 10y ago

How much that's exempt from FOIA is so high minded? It is 99.999% ass-coverage through secrecy and you know it.

ethbro 10y ago
Surprisingly, most people in government, as elsewhere, spend a majority of their time simply trying to get their work done. Is there malfeasance and corruption? Certainly. Is the solution to go to 100% open records in a hyper-politicized environment? I'm less sure. I know I wouldn't want Fox News / MSNBC combing over every email I've ever sent in the course of doing my job.
- Zigurd 10y ago
  I'm not talking about malfeasance and corruption. I'm talking about embarrassment and enablement of dubious practices. FOIA should rightly make that painful.
  - ethbro 10y ago
    On one hand you have dubious practices. On the other hand you have political football / back-stabbing. My point is that I believe the public interest is best served by a balance between "the public knows how this business was conducted" vs "any rival who wants my job can dig through everything I've done to find some dirt of me." Politicians, functionaries, and executive staff are people too. And I think HN can be a bit schizophrenic decrying "people in government are so ineffectual and unwilling to take risks" while simultaneously designing a purity litmus test where only the most boring, unadventurous apparatchiks are able to keep their jobs.
    - Zigurd 10y ago
      > My point is that I believe the public interest is best served by a balance between "the public knows how this business was conducted" vs "any rival who wants my job can dig through everything I've done to find some dirt of me." Was that ever a standard for exemption from FOIA? Much less the intent of anyone writing any part of FOIA? Stupidity should hurt.
      - ethbro 10y ago
        Your original point was that "99.999% [of FOIA exemptions are] ass-coverage through secrecy" and that's a bad thing. I disagree for the reasons I specified. If stupidity were cause for dismissal, we'd have a hard time staffing most of the jobs in the world.
- srtjstjsj 10y ago
  Why not?
- vertex-four 10y ago
  Working for the Government isn't "just a job" though. The Government holds a huge amount of power over people - and not just the people who pass the laws, but every department that has to come up with its own policies and processes. Everything the Government does affects somebody in a way that few businesses can. A bad process can literally result in death in some cases (although the third sector attempts to help when Government fails). People already get into Kafkaesque situations on a regular basis due to either the department's employees not understanding its own policies, or not knowing the magic words to use. The only way to protect against that is to allow people to force the Government to give them information. Personally, I've used FOIA responses in the UK to great effect in forcing the NHS to follow their own procedures (not medical ones, admin ones).
  - ethbro 10y ago
    Few business, but gradually more and more. The decisions that Google, Monsanto, MSNBC, Fox News, Dow, or even Walmart make are starting to have more impact than US government decisions. And I absolutely agree with your comment, but per my comment below, I think 100% transparency carries its own risks in making government less effective. If the UN and large bureaucratic organizations have taught us anything it's that position jockeying gets ruthless when promotions are a zero sum game because of no organizational growth.

srtjstjsj 10y ago

No, the framer published articles and books putting forth there arguments, then briefly privately discussed a proposal to vote on. You may recall something called the Three-Fifths compromise, which pandered to the states' short-sighted interests.

marcoperaza 10y ago
"Briefly" is an interesting way to describe four months.