4 ms·

I have no idea what you are asking.

KirinDave 10y ago
What value do restricted "dress codes" have other than as a symbol of authority and an economic burden on employees? These employees didn't have a functional dress code and it didn't seem to be in service of a brand. They were petitioning to wear reasonable footwear. And whole you may shy from such discussions, dress codes disproportionately impact women and transgender people, so it's no surprise that we note that impact. It's also worth noting how quick Americans are to dismiss any collective action as "entitlement" to be derided. It is not a new phenomenon.
- smsm42 10y ago
  Why wear clothes at all? I mean when it's cold outside, fine, but indoors or in countries with comfortable temperatures... I can get a loin cloth, or like these guys[1] (may be NSFW) you know, hygiene and stuff, but beyond that? That's a cultural thing. We live in a culture. Some parts of the culture pay more attention to stuff we cover ourselves with that others. Maybe in some places what tattoo you are wearing on your cheek is much more important than what cloth you are wearing on your feet, but in many Western workplaces that's how the culture works. Substantiating culture from rational principles is very hard (why is it ok for Western people to eat chicken but weird to eat parrot? Because. Why it's ok to women to wear pants but weird for a man to wear a skirt? Because. Why we use zippers and not codpieces, why we once wore wigs and hats and now we rarely do so? Because!). That doesn't mean culture doesn't exist or it is just stupid (unless you think whole life is stupid - which is a valid approach, but then there's no reason to single out this part of it ;). And for people that probably heard words like "diversity" and "tolerance" every day in the school, it should not be hard to understand the value of not dismissing other's culture as "this is just a stupid prejudice" and not approaching it with the posture of "now I'll show you how to do things properly". If a western person did it to a non-western person, they themselves would call it "cultural imperialism" or something like that. But they did exactly the same and don't even have enough self-reflection to realize that. That's a major failure of their education, and hopefully this life lesson would work to correct it at least partially. > It's also worth noting how quick Americans are to dismiss any collective action as "entitlement" to be derided It is also worth noting how some people think if 10 people do same thing it is somehow better than one people doing the thing - somehow "collective" is better than individual. [1] https://hgwlorenzo.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/namba4.jpg https://hgwlorenzo.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/namba4.jpg
  - KirinDave 10y ago
    Arguments that uncomfortable shoes put on young people is "corporate culture?" They fall a bit flat in the face of, "Could we please wear non-leather footwear that is comfortable since we walk around a lot?" This isn't forcing women out of their hijab. This is letting interns wear sensible footwear and not wear blazers in the summer.
    - smsm42 10y ago
      I don't see why you don't have problem seeing uncomfortable pieces of cloth wrapped around your hips, torso and neck as culture, but the shoes is where you suddenly have a problem. What's so special in the shoes that they can't be culture while others can? When the last time did you see your banker barefoot? Would your opinion change if you came to talk about a million dollar business and you banker were barefoot and in his pajamas? Maybe it is sensible to slightly alter the dress code, maybe not - it's not the point. The point is the interns failed to even realize what the issue at hand it - they just assumed everybody by them are being stupid and only wait for them, straight out of the hight school, to set them straight. Sometimes it's exactly the case, but overwhelmingly more often it is not. Even where it is the case, changing the established culture is very hard, it's much easier to grow your own to replace it. Linux wasn't born as a division of Microsoft that convinced Bill Gates to change his ways. And if you ever want a bank where bankers are barefoot and wear pajamas, it may be a coolest idea ever that will upend all the banking world - but don't expect the president of Wells Fargo or Chase to be excited about it. That's just not how culture works.
- MustardTiger 10y ago
  >What value do restricted "dress codes" have other than as a symbol of authority and an economic burden on employees? Why are you asking me this? I have nothing to do with it. I am not talking about dress codes, petitioning is the problem. If you don't like the dress code, try asking why it exists. We have no idea what value it was adding, because the person involved who had absolutely no experience and was there to learn, never bothered to learn. They just created a petition. >dress codes disproportionately impact women and transgender people, so it's no surprise that we note that impact. Again, trying to inject identity politics into everything is disgusting and contemptuous. Quit trying to pull a victim card out to declare yourself special, and thus nobody else can understand the "impact".
  - KirinDave 10y ago
    > I am not talking about dress codes, petitioning is the problem. Heaven forbid people express a mutual desire clearly to their management. Far better to be shot down individually so the manager can control the message to their management. > Again, trying to inject identity politics into everything is disgusting and contemptuous. It is not politics. Brexit was politics. This is societal contracts.
    - MustardTiger 10y ago
      >Heaven forbid people express a mutual desire clearly to their management. Far better to be shot down individually so the manager can control the message to their management. No, common etiquette forbids it. A guest given an opportunity is not in a place to make demands, especially without even bothered to ask about what they are demanding first. >It is not politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics
      - KirinDave 10y ago
        Interns are employees, not guests. And yeah, I know the term. Another manufactured social conservative term for human rights without saying those words.
deleted 10y ago
[deleted]

What value do restricted "dress codes" have other than as a symbol of authority and an economic burden on employees? These employees didn't have a functional dress code and it didn't seem to be in service of a brand. They were petitioning to wear reasonable footwear. And whole you may shy from such discussions, dress codes disproportionately impact women and transgender people, so it's no surprise that we note that impact. It's also worth noting how quick Americans are to dismiss any collective action as "entitlement" to be derided. It is not a new phenomenon.

smsm42 10y ago
Why wear clothes at all? I mean when it's cold outside, fine, but indoors or in countries with comfortable temperatures... I can get a loin cloth, or like these guys[1] (may be NSFW) you know, hygiene and stuff, but beyond that? That's a cultural thing. We live in a culture. Some parts of the culture pay more attention to stuff we cover ourselves with that others. Maybe in some places what tattoo you are wearing on your cheek is much more important than what cloth you are wearing on your feet, but in many Western workplaces that's how the culture works. Substantiating culture from rational principles is very hard (why is it ok for Western people to eat chicken but weird to eat parrot? Because. Why it's ok to women to wear pants but weird for a man to wear a skirt? Because. Why we use zippers and not codpieces, why we once wore wigs and hats and now we rarely do so? Because!). That doesn't mean culture doesn't exist or it is just stupid (unless you think whole life is stupid - which is a valid approach, but then there's no reason to single out this part of it ;). And for people that probably heard words like "diversity" and "tolerance" every day in the school, it should not be hard to understand the value of not dismissing other's culture as "this is just a stupid prejudice" and not approaching it with the posture of "now I'll show you how to do things properly". If a western person did it to a non-western person, they themselves would call it "cultural imperialism" or something like that. But they did exactly the same and don't even have enough self-reflection to realize that. That's a major failure of their education, and hopefully this life lesson would work to correct it at least partially. > It's also worth noting how quick Americans are to dismiss any collective action as "entitlement" to be derided It is also worth noting how some people think if 10 people do same thing it is somehow better than one people doing the thing - somehow "collective" is better than individual. [1] https://hgwlorenzo.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/namba4.jpg https://hgwlorenzo.files.wordpress.com/2014/01/namba4.jpg
- KirinDave 10y ago
  Arguments that uncomfortable shoes put on young people is "corporate culture?" They fall a bit flat in the face of, "Could we please wear non-leather footwear that is comfortable since we walk around a lot?" This isn't forcing women out of their hijab. This is letting interns wear sensible footwear and not wear blazers in the summer.
  - smsm42 10y ago
    I don't see why you don't have problem seeing uncomfortable pieces of cloth wrapped around your hips, torso and neck as culture, but the shoes is where you suddenly have a problem. What's so special in the shoes that they can't be culture while others can? When the last time did you see your banker barefoot? Would your opinion change if you came to talk about a million dollar business and you banker were barefoot and in his pajamas? Maybe it is sensible to slightly alter the dress code, maybe not - it's not the point. The point is the interns failed to even realize what the issue at hand it - they just assumed everybody by them are being stupid and only wait for them, straight out of the hight school, to set them straight. Sometimes it's exactly the case, but overwhelmingly more often it is not. Even where it is the case, changing the established culture is very hard, it's much easier to grow your own to replace it. Linux wasn't born as a division of Microsoft that convinced Bill Gates to change his ways. And if you ever want a bank where bankers are barefoot and wear pajamas, it may be a coolest idea ever that will upend all the banking world - but don't expect the president of Wells Fargo or Chase to be excited about it. That's just not how culture works.
MustardTiger 10y ago
>What value do restricted "dress codes" have other than as a symbol of authority and an economic burden on employees? Why are you asking me this? I have nothing to do with it. I am not talking about dress codes, petitioning is the problem. If you don't like the dress code, try asking why it exists. We have no idea what value it was adding, because the person involved who had absolutely no experience and was there to learn, never bothered to learn. They just created a petition. >dress codes disproportionately impact women and transgender people, so it's no surprise that we note that impact. Again, trying to inject identity politics into everything is disgusting and contemptuous. Quit trying to pull a victim card out to declare yourself special, and thus nobody else can understand the "impact".
- KirinDave 10y ago
  > I am not talking about dress codes, petitioning is the problem. Heaven forbid people express a mutual desire clearly to their management. Far better to be shot down individually so the manager can control the message to their management. > Again, trying to inject identity politics into everything is disgusting and contemptuous. It is not politics. Brexit was politics. This is societal contracts.
  - MustardTiger 10y ago
    >Heaven forbid people express a mutual desire clearly to their management. Far better to be shot down individually so the manager can control the message to their management. No, common etiquette forbids it. A guest given an opportunity is not in a place to make demands, especially without even bothered to ask about what they are demanding first. >It is not politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics
    - KirinDave 10y ago
      Interns are employees, not guests. And yeah, I know the term. Another manufactured social conservative term for human rights without saying those words.

deleted 10y ago

[deleted]